Original "mythology"

[Peregrine]

I am jaded and I was overexposed to the same myths over and over and I have the urge and the need to try something new and authentic.

The most often setting in fantasy books is many creatures from real-life mythologies and a few author's created creatures.

But have you ever had a thought of creating a whole mythology by yourself without ever
(or very little) drawing inspiration from Norse/Greek/Celtic/Slavic... myths?

Where most or all myths are created by you and do not have a basis in real-life mythologies.

I know that its hard for some people to come up with their own creations, so they resort to using real-life mythologies or Tolkien's inventions.

For some people, the shortcut to create their own original mythical creatures is to be inspired by some creature from mythology and imagine it completely differently or to combine the features of two different mythical creatures (and of course you must a invent a original name for that creature). Its hard or sometimes even impossible for someone to notice that its a creature copied from mythology even if you subconsciously based the creature on some myth.
Take for example white walkers or the Others, the book's fandom is not sure whether the white walkers were subconsciously based on the draugar, the frost giants or the sidhe or a combination thereof.

What are the writers (or their books) who do not rely on Greek/Celtic/Slavic... mythology or Tolkien to create a fictional world?

Note that I use the word "mythology" in a metaphorical sense, because when you create a fictional world, you are metaphorically creating a "mythology".

 

[elemtilas]

I am jaded and I was overexposed to the same myths over and over and I have the urge and the need to try something new and authentic.

The most often setting in fantasy books is many creatures from real-life mythologies and a few author's created creatures.

But have you ever had a thought of creating a whole mythology by yourself without ever
(or very little) drawing inspiration from Norse/Greek/Celtic/Slavic... myths?

The only problem I have with this is that mythology itself --- not these relatively modern reflexes --- is so ancient, so deeply human, that it's almost impossible nòt to take inspiration. Even by accident. Also, the stories and gods and motifs and heroes are so universal that it might be useless "making up your own" because it's just going to cover the same ground, answer the same questions, tell the same stories that every other mythology in any human culture will do.

One Hero, many masks.

I think it's possible to create a mythology that has a different flavour, but I think its essence will pretty much be the same as Norse, Celtic, Iranian, Indian, Malian, Japanese or Korean mythology.

I know that its hard for some people to come up with their own creations, so they resort to using real-life mythologies or Tolkien's inventions.

Tolkien just rewrote and recycled the Germanic mythology more or less. He took much inspiration from the Eddas, Beowulf and countless other lesser known old sagas and lays. Much of his work is etymologically inspired as well.

Now, is what he created a new invention? Sure! It's novel in that it doesn't slavishly copy. But it's not "new" in that he did not create a mythology from whole cloth. (That wasn't his goal, anyway.)

Creating myths and mythologies is not only an intellectual challenge and good writing practice, but it is also a deeply satisfying activity. Myths are there to answer the deep questions that nag at the human mind and possibly weigh down the heart. Any otherworld that's been cared for at all by it discoverer will have mythologies in evidence! It is this kind of "useless worldbuilding" that truly makes a writer's story pop, gives his world an inner life, a strong sense of realism. It's the foundation and corner stone that many writers reject when making their worlds. Gotta have the solid bedrock before you can build the tower where the prince is being held captive!


As for The World, I've got no problem borrowing. I've also got no problem reworking what is borrowed to make it authentic to its new home.

 

[WooHooMan]

I think I've done that already. My thing doesn't have the usual creation myth and gods and underworlds - y'know, the usual conventions. I don't really know how to summarize it since it involves all kinds of symbols and metaphysics and whatever.

It's okay but the whole "originality" thing is kind of overrated.

I should probably point-out that I'm not a fan of Tolkien or Classical/Norse mythology so I didn't take any inspiration from that.

 

[Mythopoet]

I am jaded and I was overexposed to the same myths over and over and I have the urge and the need to try something new and authentic.

How so? What books have you been reading? Where is this overexposure coming from? Is this coming from reading fantasy books? Can you give more examples? Because I'm just not getting it. You seem to have a very different idea of how common certain things are than I do.

The most often setting in fantasy books is many creatures from real-life mythologies and a few author's created creatures.

Uh... proof? The fantasy genre is old and huge and diverse. You're generalizing it in the extreme. I think you need to adjust your perception of fantasy. Perhaps by reading more. I don't know how well read you are, but I can't imagine that you could be that well read in fantasy and still have these overgeneralized views of it.

I know that its hard for some people to come up with their own creations, so they resort to using real-life mythologies or Tolkien's inventions.

For some people, the shortcut to create their own original mythical creatures is to be inspired by some creature from mythology and imagine it completely differently or to combine the features of two different mythical creatures (and of course you must a invent a original name for that creature). Its hard or sometimes even impossible for someone to notice that its a creature copied from mythology even if you subconsciously based the creature on some myth.

You seem to be insinuating that writers resort to using existing mythology in their works because it's the easy way out or because they aren't creative enough. Personally, I think this sounds rather insulting to fantasy writers. And it also assumes that you can know why they used a certain element just from reading their works. You can't.

Take for example white walkers or the Others, the book's fandom is not sure whether the white walkers were subconsciously based on the draugar, the frost giants or the sidhe or a combination thereof.

I don't see how the White Walkers could possible be based on the sidhe. That makes no sense at all.

What are the writers (or their books) who do not rely on Greek/Celtic/Slavic... mythology or Tolkien to create a fictional world?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. There seems to be words missing from the sentence.

Note that I use the word "mythology" in a metaphorical sense, because when you create a fictional world, you are metaphorically creating a "mythology".

World building and creating a mythology are NOT the same thing. That's why Tolkien coined the term "mythopoesis" for what he did, which was something that had never been done before. It means "myth-making" (and yes it's where my username comes from meaning "myth-maker"). Only some fantasy authors undertake the task of creating a fully fleshed world with its own mythology. It's a very ambitious thing to do and deserving of respect, but under no circumstances should it ever be assumed that it is what fantasy authors ought to do or that anything less is not creative enough.

Peregrine, I don't mean to come off as judgemental, though I probably do. But your threads just really boggle my mind. I just think you need to read more fantasy. Then perhaps you'll see what a limitless field it is and that you're applying borders to it (and thus to yourself) that don't exist.

The only problem I have with this is that mythology itself --- not these relatively modern reflexes --- is so ancient, so deeply human, that it's almost impossible nòt to take inspiration. Even by accident. Also, the stories and gods and motifs and heroes are so universal that it might be useless "making up your own" because it's just going to cover the same ground, answer the same questions, tell the same stories that every other mythology in any human culture will do.

Indeed. There is nothing new under the sun. And it is impossible for a person to create anything truly original. Everything we create is based on previous experience. We can't escape that. No matter how hard we try, every idea we think is brand new is just another variation of something that already exists. However, that does not mean it is not unique. There are infinite ways of looking at the world, at least one for every person. Focus less on the ingredients and more on mixing them in your own special way.

"Even in literature and art, no man who bothers about originality will ever be original: whereas if you simply try to tell the truth (without caring twopence how often it has been told before) you will, nine times out of ten, become original without ever having noticed it." ~ C. S. Lewis

 

[elemtilas]

Indeed. There is nothing new under the sun. And it is impossible for a person to create anything truly original. Everything we create is based on previous experience. We can't escape that. No matter how hard we try, every idea we think is brand new is just another variation of something that already exists. However, that does not mean it is not unique. There are infinite ways of looking at the world, at least one for every person. Focus less on the ingredients and more on mixing them in your own special way.

Right --- what's important is how we rearrange the metaphorical furniture.

Doubt it's original, but for example I've discovered that in certain mythologies of The World, the way some folks explain the existence and natures of Teor (kind of like Elves) and Men (kind of like Humans) is that the former are the Children of Lilith and the latter are the Children of Eve.

Lilith, as everyone knows, is the first woman and Eve the second and Adam was the consort. They lived for quite a long while in the earthly paradise until the primeval Serpent comes along. Apples being as delicious as they are, Eve falls for the Serpent's sales pitch and takes delivery of a bushel of sweet goodness. She goes home and Adam sets to, after Eve talks up their golden deliciousness. Lilith, being the elder by a long shot, becomes suspicious of the grocer. A big row ensues and Eve confesses that it was a beautifully feathered Serpent she got the apples from. You know, the one whose market stall is downtown under the spreading Trees?

Adam starts choking on the apple he's eating, realising what's up. Lilith tells them they'd better go and tell Father straight away so he can go down to the market and straighten things out. But Adam is embarrassed and Eve is mortified and they both shake their heads saying "No way, no how! We'll just take the apples and hide them in the garden out back. Father will never know!"

As they head out the door, Lilith says "Well, if you aren't going to tell him, then I'll have to! Please don't make me do that!" But her words fall on deaf ears. Eve and Adam are out the door and into the depths of the garden and out of sight before Lilith can finish.

Later on, Father stops by for a visit with his favourite children. Lilith is there, of course, good girl that she is! But "where have those two rascals gotten off to?" he asks. Lilith is clearly distraught, but Father encourages her and she says "I told them I'd have to tell you even if they wouldn't!"

And so, Father hears the whole sad story and goes out into the garden calling for his children. He never does find them. Not for a long while anyway. First thing he finds is a pile of delicious looking golden apples heaped up under an old dogwood tree. He chuckles to himself "Naughty kids! Good at heart, but at least they're no good at hiding their naughtiness." All around are the remains of an old cloth sack that looks like some little rat has bitten and chewed at it.

Eventually he finds the them. They're hiding, crouched under a willow, crying. Both of them have scraps of Old Nix Brand Apples sack cloth tied inexpertly around their waists. Father says to them "Dear children!" But they can't look up into his eyes. They're too ashamed. He says they've been very naughty and have to go on time-out.

So, out in the wide world, it's Lilith and her children who passed the Test and she becomes the first mother of the spiritually perfected Teor; while it's Eve and her children who failed the Test and she becomes the first mother of the downfallen Men.

 

[Russ]

I am jaded and I was overexposed to the same myths over and over and I have the urge and the need to try something new and authentic.

The most often setting in fantasy books is many creatures from real-life mythologies and a few author's created creatures.

But have you ever had a thought of creating a whole mythology by yourself without ever
(or very little) drawing inspiration from Norse/Greek/Celtic/Slavic... myths?

Where most or all myths are created by you and do not have a basis in real-life mythologies.

I know that its hard for some people to come up with their own creations, so they resort to using real-life mythologies or Tolkien's inventions.

For some people, the shortcut to create their own original mythical creatures is to be inspired by some creature from mythology and imagine it completely differently or to combine the features of two different mythical creatures (and of course you must a invent a original name for that creature). Its hard or sometimes even impossible for someone to notice that its a creature copied from mythology even if you subconsciously based the creature on some myth.
Take for example white walkers or the Others, the book's fandom is not sure whether the white walkers were subconsciously based on the draugar, the frost giants or the sidhe or a combination thereof.

What are the writers (or their books) who do not rely on Greek/Celtic/Slavic... mythology or Tolkien to create a fictional world?

Note that I use the word "mythology" in a metaphorical sense, because when you create a fictional world, you are metaphorically creating a "mythology".

I find questions like this almost impossible to deal with without any context.

What are you planning to write and why?

How important is the mythos to the story?

There really are a lot of great fantasy works out there that don't rely on historical mythologies. I think if you adjusted your reading habits Peregrine that you would come to a different conclusion about what is out there in the market.

There are pros and cons to creating your own mythos for a story but it is really hard to even discuss them without some idea of the goal or purpose of the story and the role of the mythos in it.

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

I've created a whole mythology for my book universe, the Songsphere.

 

[Mythopoet]

Right --- what's important is how we rearrange the metaphorical furniture.

Doubt it's original, but for example I've discovered that in certain mythologies of The World, the way some folks explain the existence and natures of Teor (kind of like Elves) and Men (kind of like Humans) is that the former are the Children of Lilith and the latter are the Children of Eve.

Lilith, as everyone knows, is the first woman and Eve the second and Adam was the consort.

I have never heard this particular story before. What mythology is it from? And I think you would be surprised how few people know anything about Jewish mythology that is not present in Christianity. If anything, the vast majority of people only know Lilith from pop culture. There is quite a lot of mythology out there that is not well known.

 

[elemtilas]

I have never heard this particular story before. What mythology is it from? And I think you would be surprised how few people know anything about Jewish mythology that is not present in Christianity. If anything, the vast majority of people only know Lilith from pop culture. There is quite a lot of mythology out there that is not well known.

You haven't heard it before, cos I wrote it out only an hour ago.

Obviously, it relies on a Judeo-Christian basis, but takes the matter in a different direction. I figure that at least the idea of Lilith being Adam's first girl friend is well enough known.

The context is The World. Obviously Lilith *there* is not a demon nor has she gone off and had sex with demons, she doesn't have talons for feet. Though it's possible that in the early myths of Men, she might have, just because Men are so forgetful of what has gone before their each generation...

 

[Steerpike]

The fantasy genre is old and huge and diverse. You're generalizing it in the extreme. I think you need to adjust your perception of fantasy. Perhaps by reading more. I don't know how well read you are, but I can't imagine that you could be that well read in fantasy and still have these overgeneralized views of it.

These sorts of questions arise from time to time on writing forums, and I agree that the faulty perception underlying the questions can be remedied by becoming better read in the genre, both in terms of breadth and depth. It's not an indictment of the questioner--I think humans naturally gravitate toward the familiar. Once you start reading a certain type of fantasy you're more likely to continue to pick up fantasy in that vein. But as you say the genre is large and incredibly diverse, and if someone is seeing the same elements over and over again (be they races, mythologies, or what have you) it is because the person is self-selecting for those same types of works, whether consciously or not.

 

[Svrtnsse]

[...]I think humans naturally gravitate toward the familiar.[...]

This is why we have things like story structure, tropes, and pop music.

EDIT:
There's a saying that goes along the lines of "familiarity breeds contempt" and while there is a certain truth in that it's nowhere near a universal kind of truth. Familiarity is safety and comfort. It's what makes us smile when we hear the hits of our childhood on the radio, and why we keep coming back to the same coffee shops.

There is value in pushing your boundaries and stepping outside of your comfort zone. It's exciting to explore new and unfamiliar territory. However, there is very little safety in the unfamiliar, and treading new paths just for the sake of breaking the norm isn't necessarily going to lead anywhere interesting.

When you find something that works for you, and which you enjoy, it's easy to get stuck on that and to explore that at greater depth rather than looking for new things entirely.

 

[Vadosity]

I think that if anything is written well enough it becomes original again. Myths and Fantasy are perfect examples, if you truly write something brilliantly it does not matter how old the inspiration, or how many others have used it, you shall bring a new angle to it.