Ok, what are the repercussions of not sealing the gate? Is there a time line to doomsday or something?
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Personal and Heroic Sacrifices
- Thread starter TheCrystallineEntity
- Start date
Nimue
Auror
Fewer stories focus on looking after your parents as a character motivation, but as a childless person whose parents are getting older, that is a strong relationship for me, and one worth exploring. How horrible would it feel letting harm come to your own mother, even if she’s sacrificing herself for you? I could never face that...
- Thread starter
- #63
TheCrystallineEntity
Istar
^^Yes: the destructive being [named the Sacrificer by the MC's grandfather; oh, the irony] was temporarily imprisoned ages ago before the story begins, and without making the seal permanent, it is [assumed] that the being will escape and lay waste to the planet.
^Me, neither.
^Me, neither.
Ok, cool. Yeah, looking after the mom is a good motivator, if you find a way to make the mom need looking after. If she is like Sarah Connor's it's not going to work lol.
- Thread starter
- #65
TheCrystallineEntity
Istar
I actually haven't given a lot of thought as to what the MC's mother is like. I'll be sure to explore that.
Speaking of tragic stories of daughters and mothers I was bawling my eyes out on episode four of Stranger Things last night 
There are many directions you could take that relationship for sure.
My story is about the relationship between the MC and her dad. She is 12 and just getting into that stage of adolescence when you realize you parents aren't as invincible as you thought they were. Suddenly they become "human" and embarrassing and gross and the vulnerability you suddenly feel about having "human" parents makes the world not seem quite so safe. When her dad get's taken away by the antagonist she has to go after him and rescue him (a bit like A Wrinkle In Time) and the struggle of her having to rescue the person she always thought would be there to protect her is just too much for her little 12 year old brain.
There are many directions you could take that relationship for sure.
My story is about the relationship between the MC and her dad. She is 12 and just getting into that stage of adolescence when you realize you parents aren't as invincible as you thought they were. Suddenly they become "human" and embarrassing and gross and the vulnerability you suddenly feel about having "human" parents makes the world not seem quite so safe. When her dad get's taken away by the antagonist she has to go after him and rescue him (a bit like A Wrinkle In Time) and the struggle of her having to rescue the person she always thought would be there to protect her is just too much for her little 12 year old brain.
- Thread starter
- #67
TheCrystallineEntity
Istar
The heroes are off on their quest at last. Their first destination: The library in the huge city a fair distance from their village.
Playing a little catch up on this thread. Yeah, I agree that the mother seems to be a very good option as a reason for her your MC to want to live. One question, what happened to her father? I'm assuming he's dead. I ask because one thing that comes to mind--and feel free to quietly slip this into the trash if you like--is she made a promise to him to take care of her mother. Add to that maybe the mother is sick in someway, and if your MC dies, there will be no one to take care of her, at least not in the way she does.
And throughout their journey, you can show this relationship and how she is the only one who can take care of her mother properly, and why she needs to live. The sickness can also add an obstacle to deal with as they run from the hunting parties. Forgive me if I'm sticking my nose in. Garbage can is to the left.
Couldn't the grandparents be sacrificed instead? They're family, no?
It's funny as I read this thread, a lot of the posters are working on stories that explore the theme of sacrifice. It's a major part of the novel I'm working on. I framed one of the broad story questions as "What would a father sacrifice in order to do their job?" it just so happens that my two MC's jobs are "Tyrant-Overlord" and "Rebel leader".
It sounds a little silly, but it's a serious story told from the POV of those two fathers. One starts as the villain and the other the hero, but as the story unfolds, the two characters creep towards switching places as each begins to answer the question "What would they sacrifice and why?"
pmmg
Myth Weaver
I’d been eyeing this one for a day or so, wanting to jump in, but life is busy. The idea of what turns inside of one to choose a sacrifice, is a profoundly human, and sometimes godly one. What would we sacrifice ourselves for, or what have we already made sacrifices for. I know there are some in me, and it would be a great undertaking to capture that well in a story.
I think there many things that might make one make sacrifices. Love, of course. And a sense of duty. I think these two are the most prominent. A sense of doing what it right and just. And maybe just living up to expectations. (If I was going darker, it could be just to not be a burden to others). People, however, will do many incredible things for others if the connection and the need is there. Many soldiers will sacrifice themselves for the sake their comrades, only because they have an understanding of what it means if they don’t, and because doing such becomes necessary and will hopefully bring about a greater good. And many many people make sacrifices, large and small, everyday because of the ones they love and the ones they feel an obligation for.
If you are writing this, I think you must grip the reader with the stakes, the necessity of the choice, and the difficulty of it what may be lost. Who wants their climatic sacrifice to be easy, and elicit no tears right? If you going to have a heroic sacrifice, you gotta have a whole rest of the story that leads up to it, and brings the loss to the reader, and to the other characters as well.
Your question: Is it worth sacrificing eleven people to save the world…
Well maybe. I could reason this out to be…if the world is lost anyway, are not these eleven lost with it? And so, they are sacrificed either way.
This sounds a little like the train question. Five people are on a set of tracks and don’t see a train coming. You can divert the train to another track where only one person is upon the tracks and will be killed, all you must do is pull a lever? Do you?
And then the question changes, suppose you can only divert the train by pushing a very heavy man into its path, killing him, but saving the others? Would you?
Easy enough if I was the fat man, and I could sacrifice myself, but it’s a little harder if I have to choose to sacrifice someone else.
Your story, though, has some unknown sisters who are being sacrificed, and I don’t feel any resonance with that.
The question your character is having though is ‘is anything gained by the sacrifice?’ So I can see them having this question, and perhaps spending a long time on it. Maybe there is no need to sacrifice themselves or the eleven. I guess that is where you have ask what do you want your story to be about? If the sacrifice is unnecessary, or brings about an undesired outcome, than it should be refused.
What if after all of your character’s searching, they still are posed the same question, and still have no answers by which to definitively decide? Then they must make a real choice, and that would be a great place to be at the end of your story.
I think the other story being asked about, the ending of sacrificing the unborn would not be worthy. Isn’t that Dostoevsky’s question? ‘Would we sacrifice one innocent to have a perfect world?’
I have issues with that ending. The character is sacrificing another, innocent and having expressed no will, for their more perfect world. I don’t think they would deserve it. I think their sacrifice would be superficial, and not of themselves. In some type of cosmic justice, I don’t think whatever was affording the ending they would want, would supply it. I can understand the personal struggle the character may have, and I am sure they can have much anguish over it, but agreeing to sacrifice another and just live with the bad feelings is not enough for a world of happily ever after. The way it is presented, that a good thing was made bad by a twisted sacrifice, and another twisted sacrifice is required to undo it, does not fit. Two wrongs making a right. I think the character needs to make a more noble decision. And undo the curse by setting things right, not doing more of the same. Just my two cents.
I think there many things that might make one make sacrifices. Love, of course. And a sense of duty. I think these two are the most prominent. A sense of doing what it right and just. And maybe just living up to expectations. (If I was going darker, it could be just to not be a burden to others). People, however, will do many incredible things for others if the connection and the need is there. Many soldiers will sacrifice themselves for the sake their comrades, only because they have an understanding of what it means if they don’t, and because doing such becomes necessary and will hopefully bring about a greater good. And many many people make sacrifices, large and small, everyday because of the ones they love and the ones they feel an obligation for.
If you are writing this, I think you must grip the reader with the stakes, the necessity of the choice, and the difficulty of it what may be lost. Who wants their climatic sacrifice to be easy, and elicit no tears right? If you going to have a heroic sacrifice, you gotta have a whole rest of the story that leads up to it, and brings the loss to the reader, and to the other characters as well.
Your question: Is it worth sacrificing eleven people to save the world…
Well maybe. I could reason this out to be…if the world is lost anyway, are not these eleven lost with it? And so, they are sacrificed either way.
This sounds a little like the train question. Five people are on a set of tracks and don’t see a train coming. You can divert the train to another track where only one person is upon the tracks and will be killed, all you must do is pull a lever? Do you?
And then the question changes, suppose you can only divert the train by pushing a very heavy man into its path, killing him, but saving the others? Would you?
Easy enough if I was the fat man, and I could sacrifice myself, but it’s a little harder if I have to choose to sacrifice someone else.
Your story, though, has some unknown sisters who are being sacrificed, and I don’t feel any resonance with that.
The question your character is having though is ‘is anything gained by the sacrifice?’ So I can see them having this question, and perhaps spending a long time on it. Maybe there is no need to sacrifice themselves or the eleven. I guess that is where you have ask what do you want your story to be about? If the sacrifice is unnecessary, or brings about an undesired outcome, than it should be refused.
What if after all of your character’s searching, they still are posed the same question, and still have no answers by which to definitively decide? Then they must make a real choice, and that would be a great place to be at the end of your story.
I think the other story being asked about, the ending of sacrificing the unborn would not be worthy. Isn’t that Dostoevsky’s question? ‘Would we sacrifice one innocent to have a perfect world?’
I have issues with that ending. The character is sacrificing another, innocent and having expressed no will, for their more perfect world. I don’t think they would deserve it. I think their sacrifice would be superficial, and not of themselves. In some type of cosmic justice, I don’t think whatever was affording the ending they would want, would supply it. I can understand the personal struggle the character may have, and I am sure they can have much anguish over it, but agreeing to sacrifice another and just live with the bad feelings is not enough for a world of happily ever after. The way it is presented, that a good thing was made bad by a twisted sacrifice, and another twisted sacrifice is required to undo it, does not fit. Two wrongs making a right. I think the character needs to make a more noble decision. And undo the curse by setting things right, not doing more of the same. Just my two cents.
Nimue
Auror
The feeling that two wrongs don't make a right is very much something I've debated with myself. Not only in that instance, but for all the sacrifices: blood, miscarriage, torture, and death. How can this be justified? The goddess figure is not meant to be all goodness and light, more of a force of nature, of balance, life and death in cycle, but I would be lying if I said she wasn't portrayed sympathetically in the story. The heroine believes in this goddess and the way of life she represents. To put this plot into context, the curse has been on the land for generations, hundreds of years, and has banished the gods from the earth, blighting the land, which in an agrarian society means thousands have already been faced with hardship, starvation, and disease. The heroine has been fighting this blight her entire life, and now has a remarkable chance to end it, holding power and knowledge that no one else has possessed. At stake is the man she loves, her own freedom or even life, as by law she will be burned as a witch outside of her protected home, and the lives of many of her friends who are also gifted with magic.
I think the question you asked Crystal applies, with some tweaking: what if there is no other way? If she does not do this now, is she only passing the burden on to a future generation, or guaranteeing the gods will weaken further and will never be able to intervene again? Something of what's going on in her mind. Perhaps most importantly--personal politics aside--the character sees the pregnancy as a seed of life at this point, part of her body, and hers to give up. Having miscarried multiple times before, she cannot even be sure that it would survive. And she is unwilling to bring a child into the world that would be under threat as she is, and also cursed to be possessed, their mind erased, once their father dies and passes on the curse. There was no chance that she would carry this pregnancy to term. But it does still bother me on some level. And I understand that this would be a deal breaker for many readers, which is why it's good to have the chance to discuss it. My aim is to make this choice understandable and sympathetic in context, if only for the target audience of the book. If this ever makes it in front of readers. Probably not, and this argumentation may very well be moot...
All that in-fiction justification aside, maybe the better question is why I'm writing the story this way. Thematically, the story is one where people are pushed by desperation to self-sacrifice but pulled back from the brink by those who love them, where the heroine's arc is resolved by understanding that she doesn't need to carry her burdens alone. The pregnancy causes the character to reflect on her desire for family, what she has already lost, and the hope she has to lose. It would feel false to make the sacrifices easy, or give them a loophole. Someone has to pay the price to right the world. I can imagine a story where the curse is lifted by unequivocally good and beautiful acts, but it would have very different themes and characters.
- Thread starter
- #71
TheCrystallineEntity
Istar
Woah, big replies.
Okay: Penpilot: No, the MC has no father because her mother gave birth to her and her sisters literally all by herself [it's an ancient Hyperion motherhood technique, as almost everyone on the planet was female at its beginning].
Her grandparents can't be sacrificed because they're the ones to initiate the ritual. [I'll have to add that explanation.]
The heroes have crossed the first threshold, as it were: en-route to the nearest library, they encounter the MC's grandmother, Lan, who stands in their way.
Okay: Penpilot: No, the MC has no father because her mother gave birth to her and her sisters literally all by herself [it's an ancient Hyperion motherhood technique, as almost everyone on the planet was female at its beginning].
Her grandparents can't be sacrificed because they're the ones to initiate the ritual. [I'll have to add that explanation.]
The heroes have crossed the first threshold, as it were: en-route to the nearest library, they encounter the MC's grandmother, Lan, who stands in their way.
It sounds like you are off to the races pushing your plot forward. It also sounds like you have many unique world building ideas. Just remember that plot and world building alone will not create a compelling story. Try to find a way to make her motive for searching for answers very personal, and use the inner conflict of choosing to not sacrifice herself to build her character arc and you will have something readers want to read.
Good luck!
Good luck!
- Thread starter
- #73
TheCrystallineEntity
Istar
In the next bit [Part 2, to be precise], there is a big debate with the MC's grandmother [Lan] and second grandfather [Yukyn]. Since the prospect of talking their way out is very slim indeed, the heroes will either run away, or the MC's guardian spirit [the blindfolded one] will use some magic to aid their escape.
^I'll keep that in mind as I write. part of the journey might be the MC discovering something/someone to live for along the way, since it's still a relatively new concept to her.
^I'll keep that in mind as I write. part of the journey might be the MC discovering something/someone to live for along the way, since it's still a relatively new concept to her.
- Thread starter
- #74
TheCrystallineEntity
Istar
I just wrote a four paged, utterly ridiculous scene that has nothing to do with the rest of the story in which the heroes [through magic] are teleported to the cottage of my author avatar. I have no idea what to do about it.
But in other news, the main character's guardian spirits are gone, and she alone has to help her mother as they climb the mountain hiding the seal holding the Sacrificer back.
But in other news, the main character's guardian spirits are gone, and she alone has to help her mother as they climb the mountain hiding the seal holding the Sacrificer back.
- Thread starter
- #75
TheCrystallineEntity
Istar
On a somewhat related note, I have such a hard time balancing comedy and drama. I'm ever so slightly envious that Doctor Who pulls it off so spectacularly.
pmmg
Myth Weaver
I think they need a new goddess...but its not my story.
I am not up on all the sacrifices that have been made in your story, so I would not know how to comment on those, but miscarriage seems misplaced to me, as that is not even voluntary. How can blood, torture and death be justified? Well, if it is acceptable to the goddess, than the goddess should questioned. If they are the result of some evil power taking over and pushing the goddess out, than they cannot be justified, but they may still happen. Perhaps for a reason, but it’s still something along the lines of a lessor of two evils.
I am sorry your character sees so little hope for the world that she would rather the life inside her be dead than live to grow up in it, but I question strongly the concept of sacrifice here. I don’t think the one being sacrificed has made a free choice, and so I don’t think the sacrifice would count. In fact, I think it is more like, she murders one, calls it sacrifice, and expects a better world for it.
If I may, for the sake of discussion, and taking it away from the value of life in the womb, let’s suppose instead she had already given birth and the child was just a year old. Now the sacrifice is kill that little one for a better tomorrow for she and her friends, should she do it? I would find that decision not hers to make, because the sacrifice is not hers. The infant should decide, which it most likely can't, and so it cannot make a sacrifice. She may decide for it, but it is not sacrificing itself for the good of all, it is being sacrificed (murdered) for the good all. What worthy God or Goddess would accept that? Why should I (if I were the goddess) benefit a murderous people with peace and harmony? I would not think the mother character worthy of more blessings for acting in such a selfish way. I think the mother ought to say, 'no, take me instead...' or 'Ain't happenin', but not give it up.
If she did, and was rewarded, I would think the gods must be evil. If worshipping gods means I must destroy my family and kill innocent life, than maybe its best if those gods didn't come back.
Does this infant have any other quality that would make its being sacrificed sufficient to be worthy for all? I would not know the answer.
Just about every story I have written would equate to moot, but we write them anyway. If not this one, than maybe the next. We get better, grow our skills, and tell better and better tales. So, that it might be moot does not make it unworthy of discussion. As an author, you get to make story go anyway you like. And if the story you want to tell is about sacrificing an innocent to bring back a better age, than I am sure it can be written well. I am just one voice in the wind. If I was to read this story, I am not sure how I would parse through it and not come to a similar way of looking at it, but many others may not see it the same way. So, I am sure there will be some who will take to it. The question is, what story to you want to share, and more personally, why?
I am not up on all the sacrifices that have been made in your story, so I would not know how to comment on those, but miscarriage seems misplaced to me, as that is not even voluntary. How can blood, torture and death be justified? Well, if it is acceptable to the goddess, than the goddess should questioned. If they are the result of some evil power taking over and pushing the goddess out, than they cannot be justified, but they may still happen. Perhaps for a reason, but it’s still something along the lines of a lessor of two evils.
I am sorry your character sees so little hope for the world that she would rather the life inside her be dead than live to grow up in it, but I question strongly the concept of sacrifice here. I don’t think the one being sacrificed has made a free choice, and so I don’t think the sacrifice would count. In fact, I think it is more like, she murders one, calls it sacrifice, and expects a better world for it.
If I may, for the sake of discussion, and taking it away from the value of life in the womb, let’s suppose instead she had already given birth and the child was just a year old. Now the sacrifice is kill that little one for a better tomorrow for she and her friends, should she do it? I would find that decision not hers to make, because the sacrifice is not hers. The infant should decide, which it most likely can't, and so it cannot make a sacrifice. She may decide for it, but it is not sacrificing itself for the good of all, it is being sacrificed (murdered) for the good all. What worthy God or Goddess would accept that? Why should I (if I were the goddess) benefit a murderous people with peace and harmony? I would not think the mother character worthy of more blessings for acting in such a selfish way. I think the mother ought to say, 'no, take me instead...' or 'Ain't happenin', but not give it up.
If she did, and was rewarded, I would think the gods must be evil. If worshipping gods means I must destroy my family and kill innocent life, than maybe its best if those gods didn't come back.
Does this infant have any other quality that would make its being sacrificed sufficient to be worthy for all? I would not know the answer.
Just about every story I have written would equate to moot, but we write them anyway. If not this one, than maybe the next. We get better, grow our skills, and tell better and better tales. So, that it might be moot does not make it unworthy of discussion. As an author, you get to make story go anyway you like. And if the story you want to tell is about sacrificing an innocent to bring back a better age, than I am sure it can be written well. I am just one voice in the wind. If I was to read this story, I am not sure how I would parse through it and not come to a similar way of looking at it, but many others may not see it the same way. So, I am sure there will be some who will take to it. The question is, what story to you want to share, and more personally, why?
Nimue
Auror
I don't believe a two-month-old fetus and a one-year-old child are at all equivalent. A fetus at that point in development is not conscious and can't survive outside the woman's body, and for that reason it is her choice to keep or give up. Countless women have chosen to terminate pregnancies rather than have a child they can't provide for or bring a child into an abusive or dangerous environment, and I have nothing but respect for that. I'm not remotely interested in having that debate.
And I would not have the same difficulty telling a story along those lines--the problem for me is bringing this fantasy element into it, moving the stakes and motivation into a context that doesn't have a real-world parallel. No one has to end a pregnancy in order to save someone else's life, or improve the lives of an entire country's population. It doesn't make instinctive ethical sense. And I partially understand you in that, in fiction, you want everything to work out, you would want her to be able to change the world and have the child she grows to realize she wants, but in this story, the chance for her to have that child is gone forever. And I think I do want to tell that story, I want to have her wrestle with and grieve her decision, I want to have that affect her relationship, I want to show her lover doing his best to understand and support her, and one of the other characters will reject her decision and call it sorcery, though all of her sacrifices are sorcery to him, and I want to show the argument that results, because... I do want to reflect what I believe in my writing. In the same way that I'm drawn towards writing kind, consensual romance and support for characters who have gone through trauma, I believe that portraying something like this as a personal sacrifice and not "murder" is important. I just don't want it to feel like a plot device or manipulative or otherwise insensitive and untruthful. In all likelihood, again, this story is just one for myself, one for me to learn how to write with, and maybe it doesn't matter very much what the average reader would think.
To bring this onto easier ground, maybe I should clarify some things about the goddess and what she's asking for. In this story gods are neither omniscient, omnipotent, nor omnipresent--they are much more like very powerful beings who have given up physical form. The sorceress who was the architect of the original curse was very close to a goddess, and with the support of the misled ancient druids, was able to trap the goddess and her pantheon of gods into accepting these unwilling sacrifices, tainting the land and shutting the gods off from the people, and the people from the gods. The concept is that as magic comes from life--upon death, this magic returns to the Veil, and the creation of new life brings magic into the earth again--nothing is stronger magic than human blood, fertility, pain, death, and so nothing but that can counter the curse. In an ideal situation, these acts of brutality would not be repeated, but the sacrifice could be spared from a community of people--all the druids, everyone willing, so hundreds of people giving a drop of blood each, a fraction of their fertility, a moment's pain, a season of their lifespan. Insofar as some suffering is needed to lift the curse, that's what the goddess would want.
However, the heroine summons her alone, determined to spill her own blood. The Goddess-as-Maiden, in a weakened form that cannot remember the rest of the sacrifices, accepts this offering, as it is willing and pure, but exhorts her to share the burden of the trials to come. She's close to human in her decisions here. The heroine at this point believes blood is all that's necessary, and the next sacrifice comes as a shock. In fact, the goddess had a hand in her conceiving, tilted the scales, though an interruption in her contraception made it possible (it's complicated.) Without this, the closest sacrifice would have been her fertility, and the goddess feared she would take that. (This was one of the other possibilities I was considering for this sacrifice, that she gives up the ability to have children. But it was more abstract, less resonant with the character at this point, and while it does affect her relationship, not in the same way. I'm still considering it. Wonder if that would be considered as "immoral"). The choice is set before her, the goddess does plead with her to think, tell her that there would be other chances. She makes her choice, and will eventually make the choice to give up her own life--though someone else steps in to take that sacrifice from her.
I know this is largely rambling and unlikely to change anyone's mind, but in a way it's been helpful to express my reasoning and the goals of this storyline. So thank you, for that.
And I would not have the same difficulty telling a story along those lines--the problem for me is bringing this fantasy element into it, moving the stakes and motivation into a context that doesn't have a real-world parallel. No one has to end a pregnancy in order to save someone else's life, or improve the lives of an entire country's population. It doesn't make instinctive ethical sense. And I partially understand you in that, in fiction, you want everything to work out, you would want her to be able to change the world and have the child she grows to realize she wants, but in this story, the chance for her to have that child is gone forever. And I think I do want to tell that story, I want to have her wrestle with and grieve her decision, I want to have that affect her relationship, I want to show her lover doing his best to understand and support her, and one of the other characters will reject her decision and call it sorcery, though all of her sacrifices are sorcery to him, and I want to show the argument that results, because... I do want to reflect what I believe in my writing. In the same way that I'm drawn towards writing kind, consensual romance and support for characters who have gone through trauma, I believe that portraying something like this as a personal sacrifice and not "murder" is important. I just don't want it to feel like a plot device or manipulative or otherwise insensitive and untruthful. In all likelihood, again, this story is just one for myself, one for me to learn how to write with, and maybe it doesn't matter very much what the average reader would think.
To bring this onto easier ground, maybe I should clarify some things about the goddess and what she's asking for. In this story gods are neither omniscient, omnipotent, nor omnipresent--they are much more like very powerful beings who have given up physical form. The sorceress who was the architect of the original curse was very close to a goddess, and with the support of the misled ancient druids, was able to trap the goddess and her pantheon of gods into accepting these unwilling sacrifices, tainting the land and shutting the gods off from the people, and the people from the gods. The concept is that as magic comes from life--upon death, this magic returns to the Veil, and the creation of new life brings magic into the earth again--nothing is stronger magic than human blood, fertility, pain, death, and so nothing but that can counter the curse. In an ideal situation, these acts of brutality would not be repeated, but the sacrifice could be spared from a community of people--all the druids, everyone willing, so hundreds of people giving a drop of blood each, a fraction of their fertility, a moment's pain, a season of their lifespan. Insofar as some suffering is needed to lift the curse, that's what the goddess would want.
However, the heroine summons her alone, determined to spill her own blood. The Goddess-as-Maiden, in a weakened form that cannot remember the rest of the sacrifices, accepts this offering, as it is willing and pure, but exhorts her to share the burden of the trials to come. She's close to human in her decisions here. The heroine at this point believes blood is all that's necessary, and the next sacrifice comes as a shock. In fact, the goddess had a hand in her conceiving, tilted the scales, though an interruption in her contraception made it possible (it's complicated.) Without this, the closest sacrifice would have been her fertility, and the goddess feared she would take that. (This was one of the other possibilities I was considering for this sacrifice, that she gives up the ability to have children. But it was more abstract, less resonant with the character at this point, and while it does affect her relationship, not in the same way. I'm still considering it. Wonder if that would be considered as "immoral"). The choice is set before her, the goddess does plead with her to think, tell her that there would be other chances. She makes her choice, and will eventually make the choice to give up her own life--though someone else steps in to take that sacrifice from her.
I know this is largely rambling and unlikely to change anyone's mind, but in a way it's been helpful to express my reasoning and the goals of this storyline. So thank you, for that.
pmmg
Myth Weaver
Nimue,
What you believe, and what I believe, I am sure is something we could delve into if we chose, and might be a good exercise in some context, but I am pretty sure the forum rules would not want us too. You say, you don’t want to debate, I am not debating you. You are free to believe as you will (as you always are). I am looking at this, I think, from the context of your story, and the mythos surrounding it.
Here is the logic I am looking at it with:
Something happened. A woman had her preborn baby taken from her against her will. It perverted some type of magic and caused the gods to be separated causing problems.
I have to ask, why would that matter? That preborn life must matter. It must have value. Or is it only the woman's anguish that it was an unwanted forcible removal that is the problem, or in other words, if the first woman was okay with it, the curse would never have been cast? I thought it must be that the life taken had value. Something beyond just the anguish of the first woman.
Story moves along and woman 2 is now making a sacrifice of similar value. Well, here again, I am asking why is it of value? If it is of no value, nothing has been sacrificed (which is kind of what the thread is about). If it is of small value, not equivalent to another life, then it must have been from the start, and that does not speak to something that would be powerful magic, or that the gods don’t demand very much from their sacrifices.
I think in the context of your story, there must be equivalency, or there really is no sacrifice that is of any real value. In which case, I do think losing her fertility would actually be a more worthy sacrifice, because the character has actually given up something. As I read it now, its kind of like a Disney movie, where the faithful character get killed on screen and everyone gives a tear and then we find out it's not really true, the injured character is not really dead and springs back up. So she gives up something of little value, and just gets to make it again sometime further down the road. That does not seem like a very heavy cost.
So in the one case, the character is sacrificing something of value (equivalent? see posts above), which I question makes the woman character worthy of any benefit for it (though the newest post has me asking questions of the goddess instead), or, she is not sacrificing much of anything, in which case I question why this would have any power at all?
I did take this to mean she was doing something to save the world. You had stated that it would mean the gods would return and end some type of bad living condition they all suffer under. I do see that as needing to be powerful magic, separating the gods from the world, and requiring a powerful reversal.
I am trying to make sense of the last paragraph. As I read it, it seems the woman character thought she would give some blood and satisfy the goddess, but instead, the goddess caused her to miscarry, something she was unaware would happen, and took that as the sacrifice.
I find I am questioning what is the sacrifice? Who's will was imposed, and upon whom? What was lost? And was there really a sacrifice? A sacrifice by those unknowing would not seem to be sacrifice to me. It is something else.
I think, if you are going to go for a sacrifice as a theme of the story, the woman has to make one, knowing the consequence, and it should be something she loses, not something with little value, or she causes something else to lose. Though, I am not sure sacrifice is really an important theme in this.
But as I said before. Who cares what I think? If your story does not benefit from the thought exercise, don’t use it. We don’t have to see things the same way. Though, I do thank you for the puzzle.
Anyway, I'm going to let this one go, as I am sure to continue will brush up against the rules sooner or later. If you, (or anyone else, I suppose), would like to continue, I do have a PM box. Otherwise, thread is open. I will leave the rest of it to others.
What you believe, and what I believe, I am sure is something we could delve into if we chose, and might be a good exercise in some context, but I am pretty sure the forum rules would not want us too. You say, you don’t want to debate, I am not debating you. You are free to believe as you will (as you always are). I am looking at this, I think, from the context of your story, and the mythos surrounding it.
Here is the logic I am looking at it with:
Something happened. A woman had her preborn baby taken from her against her will. It perverted some type of magic and caused the gods to be separated causing problems.
I have to ask, why would that matter? That preborn life must matter. It must have value. Or is it only the woman's anguish that it was an unwanted forcible removal that is the problem, or in other words, if the first woman was okay with it, the curse would never have been cast? I thought it must be that the life taken had value. Something beyond just the anguish of the first woman.
Story moves along and woman 2 is now making a sacrifice of similar value. Well, here again, I am asking why is it of value? If it is of no value, nothing has been sacrificed (which is kind of what the thread is about). If it is of small value, not equivalent to another life, then it must have been from the start, and that does not speak to something that would be powerful magic, or that the gods don’t demand very much from their sacrifices.
I think in the context of your story, there must be equivalency, or there really is no sacrifice that is of any real value. In which case, I do think losing her fertility would actually be a more worthy sacrifice, because the character has actually given up something. As I read it now, its kind of like a Disney movie, where the faithful character get killed on screen and everyone gives a tear and then we find out it's not really true, the injured character is not really dead and springs back up. So she gives up something of little value, and just gets to make it again sometime further down the road. That does not seem like a very heavy cost.
So in the one case, the character is sacrificing something of value (equivalent? see posts above), which I question makes the woman character worthy of any benefit for it (though the newest post has me asking questions of the goddess instead), or, she is not sacrificing much of anything, in which case I question why this would have any power at all?
I did take this to mean she was doing something to save the world. You had stated that it would mean the gods would return and end some type of bad living condition they all suffer under. I do see that as needing to be powerful magic, separating the gods from the world, and requiring a powerful reversal.
I am trying to make sense of the last paragraph. As I read it, it seems the woman character thought she would give some blood and satisfy the goddess, but instead, the goddess caused her to miscarry, something she was unaware would happen, and took that as the sacrifice.
I find I am questioning what is the sacrifice? Who's will was imposed, and upon whom? What was lost? And was there really a sacrifice? A sacrifice by those unknowing would not seem to be sacrifice to me. It is something else.
I think, if you are going to go for a sacrifice as a theme of the story, the woman has to make one, knowing the consequence, and it should be something she loses, not something with little value, or she causes something else to lose. Though, I am not sure sacrifice is really an important theme in this.
But as I said before. Who cares what I think? If your story does not benefit from the thought exercise, don’t use it. We don’t have to see things the same way. Though, I do thank you for the puzzle.
Anyway, I'm going to let this one go, as I am sure to continue will brush up against the rules sooner or later. If you, (or anyone else, I suppose), would like to continue, I do have a PM box. Otherwise, thread is open. I will leave the rest of it to others.
psychotick
Auror
Hi,
I think it always has to come back to the one making the sacrifice. What are their values / goals / fears. You asked is it worth it to sacrifice eleven to save a world. The question you should have asked in my view is - is it worth it to the character? This isn't a mathematical question.
And for most people I would guess the issue comes down to what they would lose and what they would save. Oddly all people's lives are not the same to people. For example if you're old and ill the sacrifice might not be so great for you as it would have been when you were young and fit with your whole life ahead of you. Likewise if you believe in heaven etc the sacrifice becomes easier.
On the other side I think it's more likely that someone would choose to sacrifice themselves for something personal - eg family - than some nebulous thing like "the world". So bring it back to the character's own situation. Kill themselves because the world might end if they don't? Or because if the world ends their own loved ones end.
Not wanting to make this a religious debate at all but consider the reason for Jesus allowing himself to be crucified. If you remember the story, Jesus was fleeing the crucifixion, running through the Garden of Gethsemane. Now at the time he knew he was the son of God etc, that he would be reborn, and that he would save mankind etc etc. And he probably had a great many arguments running through his head at the time - human justifications for not wanting to be crucified even if it would save mankind. So he'd made his decision. Then his disciple cut the ear off a Roman soldier in the garden and the maths changed. In an instant it wasn't the choice between saving the world and living, it was between saving one soldier / healing him and living. Different maths different decision.
That's where your story has to go. Into the head of your character. If you want her to sacrifice herself, you have to find the thing that she values above and beyond her own life. If you want her to run, you have to show that she values her own life beyond them.
As an aside a few years ago I wrote Dragon which was a sci fi space opera of one man's sacrifice. A slow self destruction of a man as he sacrificed all that he was not even to save his family, but to find out what had happened to them. He assumed they were dead, he just had to know what had happened. To most of us looking in on him that would not be sane - and indeed he probably wasn't by any conventional metric. But to him every sacrifice he made along the way, even though it drove him closer to death, was worth it. Based purely on his need to know, and his feeling of survivor guilt for not having been there when his family disappeared. His belief that he might have been able to save them.
I should mention that writing that book was an emotional thing for me - getting into my character's head space. But I think if you're going to write this sort of stuff, that's where you need to go.
Cheers, Greg.
I think it always has to come back to the one making the sacrifice. What are their values / goals / fears. You asked is it worth it to sacrifice eleven to save a world. The question you should have asked in my view is - is it worth it to the character? This isn't a mathematical question.
And for most people I would guess the issue comes down to what they would lose and what they would save. Oddly all people's lives are not the same to people. For example if you're old and ill the sacrifice might not be so great for you as it would have been when you were young and fit with your whole life ahead of you. Likewise if you believe in heaven etc the sacrifice becomes easier.
On the other side I think it's more likely that someone would choose to sacrifice themselves for something personal - eg family - than some nebulous thing like "the world". So bring it back to the character's own situation. Kill themselves because the world might end if they don't? Or because if the world ends their own loved ones end.
Not wanting to make this a religious debate at all but consider the reason for Jesus allowing himself to be crucified. If you remember the story, Jesus was fleeing the crucifixion, running through the Garden of Gethsemane. Now at the time he knew he was the son of God etc, that he would be reborn, and that he would save mankind etc etc. And he probably had a great many arguments running through his head at the time - human justifications for not wanting to be crucified even if it would save mankind. So he'd made his decision. Then his disciple cut the ear off a Roman soldier in the garden and the maths changed. In an instant it wasn't the choice between saving the world and living, it was between saving one soldier / healing him and living. Different maths different decision.
That's where your story has to go. Into the head of your character. If you want her to sacrifice herself, you have to find the thing that she values above and beyond her own life. If you want her to run, you have to show that she values her own life beyond them.
As an aside a few years ago I wrote Dragon which was a sci fi space opera of one man's sacrifice. A slow self destruction of a man as he sacrificed all that he was not even to save his family, but to find out what had happened to them. He assumed they were dead, he just had to know what had happened. To most of us looking in on him that would not be sane - and indeed he probably wasn't by any conventional metric. But to him every sacrifice he made along the way, even though it drove him closer to death, was worth it. Based purely on his need to know, and his feeling of survivor guilt for not having been there when his family disappeared. His belief that he might have been able to save them.
I should mention that writing that book was an emotional thing for me - getting into my character's head space. But I think if you're going to write this sort of stuff, that's where you need to go.
Cheers, Greg.
Nimue
Auror
pmmg, it's difficult to parse what you're saying, but it's clear we have fundamentally separate ways of looking at this. The heroine is suffering and losing the potential to have this child--that is her sacrifice. And yes, it makes all the difference that the first woman was unwilling, as that violence against her corrupted the magic and prevented the gods from intervening. Consent versus violence is a theme in the story that ties into the heroine's background. That sacrifice, even if given willingly, would never have been ordinarily accepted by the goddess, only in this scenario where there is no other choice. You seem to be saying that if it's not fully equal to a living child, a pregnancy has no value, which is untrue in anyone's perspective. It has value to the woman carrying it. Is the sacrifice of blood meaningless because she doesn't permanently have anemia afterwards? She still suffers for it and is traumatized by it. That isn't "nothing".
Sorry for derailing your thread, Crystal, I hope you go the answers you were looking for.
Sorry for derailing your thread, Crystal, I hope you go the answers you were looking for.
