Setting Descriptions in Fantasy Writing

[Finchbearer]

I can’t remember asking the same question before, though I am certainly in a different place to where I was a year ago. Wouldn’t have been regarding the same story. I haven’t linked the beginning to the ending. Is this something along the lines of a circular narrative?

 

[pmmg]

Well...then its question 2.0, at least as good as time bandits.

A whole year later and a whole year wiser.

 

[Finchbearer]

A whole year later and a whole year wiser.

Maybe…maybe not.

 

[The Dark One]

I use both types of opening, in both short stories and novels, and for me the opening is defined by the end of the story. Because I write the opening and closing scenes first and then the rest of the story I find that the way I intend to end the story sets up the way I want to open it. They're a sort of matched pair, I suppose. I can't explain it any more than that because I never think in terms of story models and theories when I write. It just works out that way. Which is of course no help to you what so ever.

Although I don't write the ending early, I always have a clear idea of what it will be (even though it always changes) when I start. Like Swede, I don't think in terms of models but decades of reading will imbue you with patterns and models of storytelling. I was using the models long before I learnt what they were.

 

[Jackarandajam]

Like Swede, I don't think in terms of models but decades of reading will imbue you with patterns and models of storytelling. I was using the models long before I learnt what they were.

I would add a disclaimer to this:
There is a distinct difference between knowledge absorbed consuming vs. creating.

I have been casually, sometimes even carefully, observing the human body for 3+ decades. Hand me a pencil, and while I certainly can draw something that is recognizably human, nothing of mine is hitting The Louvre any time soon, or even really sellable.
I also don't know how to fix what I'm doing wrong without studying the craft of depicting human anatomy with art.

Kinda goes back to the eternal question; do you "write so you don't kill people" or are you trying to be accepted on a wider platform?
If you're writing for yourself, rock on, it's a great hobby. You might even find some success, but there's a distinct possibility that success is going to be extremely hard to replicate if you don't actually KNOW exactly what you did that worked, you were just riding instinct.
If you're trying to get better, don't drive yourself crazy just trying to up your concentration. No amount of tongue biting will make me draw a masterpiece.

Recognize and appreciate that it's a craft like any other art form that has already been done a lot by humans and there's a standard to catch up to, and that takes study and practice.
Sure, the three act structure is essentially the "I before e" of the writing world, extracted from Campbell's theory of the monomyth.
But it's 3rd grade writing theory, its worked preeeetty well for people for a long time, and it isn't nearly the end all of what practitioners have to say about the craft.

 

[Prince of Spires]

If it's any comfort, descriptions in fantasy are hard. Brandon Sanderson in his lectures on writing Fantasy, descibes worldbuild through a characters eyes without resorting to encyclopedia entries and actually making it interesting to the reader as the grand skill of writing Fantasy. It's hard, and few writers manage to do so perfectly. So don't beat yourself up over it, you're in good company.

I agree with several others here that focussing on one thing while editing is the best approach for most people. The simple reason is that if you first add in all the worldbuilding bits and then later come to the conclusion that you don't actually need that scene, then you've wasted time and effort polishing it only to throw it away. It's much easier to focus on one thing, and to work from broad to narrow.

My advise would be to enjoy the process. Though that might be hard. I seem to be the exception in that I actually like editing (at first). Just sit down, read through your work, and take notes. Don't worry too much about the prose. Just focus on the plot and the characters. Is the plot believable? Does the pace work? Do the character motivations make sense?

Once you've got those notes in place, take a red pen to your work and make any needed changes based on those notes.

After that, pick a next thing to focus on. Depend a bit on what your story needs (and what would be the most work). But either prose, or worldbuilding, or simply adding in sensory details.

 

[Mad Swede]

I can’t remember asking the same question before, though I am certainly in a different place to where I was a year ago. Wouldn’t have been regarding the same story. I haven’t linked the beginning to the ending. Is this something along the lines of a circular narrative?

This is really hard to explain, but I'll do my best.

For me, the way I begin the story sort of sets the tone for the way I end the story, and this is in itself linked to what the story is about. I've said before that I don't set out to put a given theme into my stories, but that this theme (or themes) turns up anyway. For me the ending needs to wrap up the story and the way it starts, not just resolve the conflicts in the story. By wrapping up I mean that there is a sort of emotional link between the start and the end of the story, and this emotional link is also (according to my editor) linked to the theme of the story.

I'm sure my editor could put a name to this sort of structure and linkage, but I've never asked her. The reason I don't ask is that I don't think we as authors really need to know the theories - and yes, I know that's sacrilege for many writers. Although Aristotle was one of the first to define a story structure the real theoretical discussion didn't get going until the middle of the 20th century. Given that the popularisation of story structures is so late I don't see that knowing about these structures and theories is neccessary to write a successful story. It might help, but at the end of the day it's still all about our creativity, what we write and how well we write it.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I don't think we as authors really need to know the theories

I sort of both agree and disagree with this.

I think most authors can write most stories without knowing the theory behind story structures. Stories are one of those things that make us human. Most people have read and seen thousands of stories by the time they become adults, from small Donald Duck comics to 400k word doorstoppers. All of those show us what stories are like.

What's more, our own lives are stories. On theory about why the Hero's Journey is so powerful, is that it mimics children growing up, moving out on their own and learning to lead their lives.

Where the theory does become useful, is when it doesn't work. When as a writer you're stuck in your writing, and you know you need to improve something but you don't know what, then the theory can become useful. You can take that theory and apply it to your story to see why something does or doens't work. It's a tool you can use to find solutions.

Also, I believe that good story structure is probably the hardest thing to get right. And if you're just starting out, then simply copying some story structure can result is vastly better stories.

 

[Finchbearer]

While we are on a slight tangent; there are plenty of successful authors who…do not write very well. But how do I know as a reader whether a book is badly written by someone who has a degree in creative writing or not? In other words the reader won’t know if you have all this knowledge or not. I don’t really plan on reading any books on ‘how to write a novel’, but I like picking things up here and there and learning how things can be done behind the scenes. I have my own methods too.

 

[Penpilot]

While we are on a slight tangent; there are plenty of successful authors who…do not write very well. But how do I know as a reader whether a book is badly written by someone who has a degree in creative writing or not? In other words the reader won’t know if you have all this knowledge or not.

Not that I'm an expert, but I do listen to author interviews and authors just talking to one another on a regular basis, and from what I've listened to, it seems that every author knows the lingo. They may not use those things in their process, but they are definitely aware of them and understand what they mean at least on a rudimentary level.

I don’t really plan on reading any books on ‘how to write a novel’, but I like picking things up here and there and learning how things can be done behind the scenes. I have my own methods too.

IMHO, if you like picking things up, reading books on writing is a good place to pick those things up. I like to say writing is like MMA, you take what's useful to you and discard the rest. Over the years, I've picked up this and that from reading books, watching videos, and just listening to writers talk, and have Frankensteined together my work process.

At the very least, it forces you to think about writing from different perspectives. Even if you don't find anything useful to use in your process, it makes you reevaluate your thinking and how you're doing things. IMHO, that's good, because it acts as a bit of a check to make sure you're not just doing things out of habit, and you're actually doing what works best for you.

My thinking is no matter how much you think you know or how well you think you know something, there's always a deeper level of understanding to be had.

(Not sure if the following necessarily applies here, so ignore it if you find it boring.)

I came to this realization when I was practising a physical skill, ice skating, that I was already pretty good at, very good at actually. I won't bore you with the specifics, but I was doing some very basic, foundational drills, drills that I tended not to do often because I'd nailed them down decades ago, so I tended to do more challenging things. But when I was doing that very basic drill, something clicked. I gained just a little more understanding on what I was doing. That had a cascading effect over all of my skating improving everything just a little.

So that got me curious. I started going back through all the various basic foundational drills again, executing them and thinking about them, and each time, I gained a little more understanding. Since then, I came to the conclusion that people at the higher levels aren't there because they can do the real complex stuff. They're at that level because they're exceptional at doing the basic stuff, and that's what allows them to do the complex stuff.

And so far, that way of thinking has worked well for me, in skating and in writing.

 

[pmmg]

I don’t really plan on reading any books on ‘how to write a novel’, but I like picking things up here and there and learning how things can be done behind the scenes.

Not that I wish to persuade you, but should you go looking for books on the subject, I have always found the thinner ones to be the most useful. They get to it faster, and make it so I can more easily fit it into my own knowledge stack. I will say, I would just call these other ways of picking things up.

If you find you are interested, I would steer you back to this post here:

Point of View Writing


I also like the authortube. Only...now that I dont have sound on my PC at work, I dont watch it much anymore. It may pick up with book 4 and 5 are done.

Most of it is stuff I already know at this point, but I still like going through it anyway and see what they have to say. (Though I wonder....the internet has so many doing the same stuff, what would I do if I also wanted to give writing advice? Seems like its already out there).

 

[Finchbearer]

So far, I actually enjoy reading books to be inspired (and to just enjoy reading books) but of course I can’t help but observe how cleverly something might be done, or where I might see areas that the author could have done something better.

Distancing myself from the onslaught of ‘writing advice’ helps to clear the air, and I like to create uninhibited so to speak, but if I’m curious about a certain thing, I can just look it up. I like to look at multiple sources or else you’re just reading someone’s bias.

There are so many other avenues of research other than straight up writing advice / lessons, but small doses can be helpful. Just my experience.

 

[pmmg]

I wish I was one of those who enjoyed reading books, but to me, they always feel like homework. Enjoyment is not often what I feel doing such.

I think I was not trying to create, I would be more in the enjoyment camp, but at present, if I have time to burn, I'd rather create.

 

[Jackarandajam]

Distancing myself from the onslaught of ‘writing advice’ helps to clear the air, and I like to create uninhibited so to speak, but if I’m curious about a certain thing, I can just look it up. I like to look at multiple sources or else you’re just reading someone’s bias.

I get this. There are a million books on writing, most of them not very good.
The internet is a giant opinion circus.
I've poked around quite a bit and I like the Mythic Scribes opinion circus the best.

I've read tons of books on writing. Most of them are ironically probably the most popular books written by the author.

I love audiobooks, because my time is limited and if I'm sitting down and able to concentrate on something I prefer to be writing. I can inhale audiobooks while I'm driving or doing chores.

Good news! I read all the books on writing so you don't have to.

Here are my top 5:
1. How to write best-selling fiction - James Scott Bell
A good "30k foot" overview of the basics. It's a Great Courses audiobook. Read this and you can scratch every basic "how to write a novel" book off the list. It's an easy to ingest overview and none of the rest of them say anything this doesn't, or at least nothing important. Mr. Bell is a bestselling thriller writer.
2. Story - Robert McKee
The second "30k foot" Advanced, comprehensive overview of writing, and the last on the list. After this, it's just a question of getting a little more information about specific questions you might have. Both this and the first on the list will help you glean tons more from your reading.
3. first you write a sentence - Joe Moran
Mr. Moran is i believe an english professor, and the book is a love letter to the english language. Its more about the beauty of the written word and the theory of how words are made pretty.
4. The Steal Like an Artist Audio Trilogy - Austin Kleon
An inspiring and paradigm-shifting series on creativity. Each book is a pretty short read so I don't feel bad listing all three as one.
5. Consider This - Chuck Palahniuk
More on literary writing then writing in general. Mr. Palahniuk has some pretty specific preferences and while I for one am not interested in writing exactly like him, I really appreciated how honest this book was. He doesn't talk down to the reader, or try to explain specifics or theory, it's more about little tips and tricks.

There! I've read dozens of books on writing and I can't think of another to add to this list that wouldn't be mostly redundant.
As a bonus I'll add On Creativity - John Cleese. A delightful, tiny little book on creativity that I found funny, thought-provoking and encouraging all at once.

I can't insist on the professional effectiveness of this list until I'm super famous, obviously, but if I could get back all the time I've spent reading books on writing, I'd cash in on all but these, I think.

 

[Jackarandajam]

Disclaimer:
Seems like in these conversations some people come at it like they only have a set number of books they can read in their life, and are worried about wasting one of the slots on something that isn't as effective as possible to either inspire, entertain or inform.
My philosophy is to read everything in my path, twice if it's good, and if it's boring start another better book at the same time to make it more tolerable. If it's just straight up bad, toss it out the window and go back to the bookstore.

I'm probably obsessive, maybe adhd, possibly hypomanic and should definitely talk to somebody who has a degree in people with a touch of crazy, but there it is. I have trouble understanding people's reticence to just plough into stuff and decide whether or not it did them any good whenever they come up for air.

 

[Ban]

Disclaimer:
Seems like in these conversations some people come at it like they only have a set number of books they can read in their life, and are worried about wasting one of the slots on something that isn't as effective as possible to either inspire, entertain or inform.
My philosophy is to read everything in my path, twice if it's good, and if it's boring start another better book at the same time to make it more tolerable. If it's just straight up bad, toss it out the window and go back to the bookstore.

I'm probably obsessive, maybe adhd, possibly hypomanic and should definitely talk to somebody who has a degree in people with a touch of crazy, but there it is. I have trouble understanding people's reticence to just plough into stuff and decide whether or not it did them any good whenever they come up for air.

For me it's just a case of ceaseless distraction. I'll start reading a book, get dozens of pages in, before my attention is drawn elsewhere long enough for me to forget the narrative of whatever I was reading (usually non-fiction informative). The world beyond the page has its own allure. But to name a few worldly distractions, cooking, running, writing, playing chess or watching MMA more directly engages me than (re-)opening a book. Thus when it comes to the time I can direct towards reading, I prefer to keep my literature list small, for even within the realm of words I must divide my time between non-fiction (my preference) and fiction.

 

[pmmg]

Seems like in these conversations some people come at it like they only have a set number of books they can read in their life, and are worried about wasting one of the slots on something that isn't as effective as possible to either inspire, entertain or inform.

I've no objection to reading books, and most stuff I read is the error-full writing of writers like us, trying to make our stuff better.

I would say it as, I only have so much energy to spend. And if the choice is read this, or write this, I would prefer to be writing instead. Reading is further back on the priority list. As it is, writing takes a lot of energy, so... It pushes a lot of stuff to the back.

 

[Jackarandajam]

But to name a few worldly distractions, cooking, running, writing, playing chess or watching MMA more directly engages me than (re-)opening a book.

I would say it as, I only have so much energy to spend. And if the choice is read this, or write this, I would prefer to be writing instead.

Oh for sure, hence my love affair with audiobooks. Currently painting my in-renovation master closet, after which ill be making raised beds for tomatoes and potting wild sumac, all while an English gentleman gently reads me Marcel Proust.

 

[Ban]

Oh for sure, hence my love affair with audiobooks. Currently painting my in-renovation master closet, after which ill be making raised beds for tomatoes and potting wild sumac, all while an English gentleman gently reads me Marcel Proust.

Through multitasking Jack found a way to recover, or at least reduce, lost time.

 

[pmmg]

I do use audio books (and, in fact, you are much more likely to get read by me if you've published one), but I find with them, that its just easy to drift off and before you know it, I heard the last 30 minutes, but I cant remember anything in it. They still demand my attention to follow, which sometimes is still too much.