Show, don't Tell...How do you do it?

[Steerpike]

There is not right or wrong way to write. However you do it will possibly attract some kind of audience somewhere. Therefore, just write however you want.

I think that may be correct as a general statement, with the caveat that whatever approach you take, you have to do it well. The proof of this is that you can quite readily identify published and successful works that run such a wide range of approaches to how to write that it is hard to argue that a writer can't do X successfully. Barring some extreme hypotheticals that we would probably both come up with, I'd say it is correct that there is not one correct approach to fiction writing to the exclusion of others. I'd also say that trying to pigeon-hole all new writers into a single approach ignores the natural differences and talents of new writers, and pushes them all toward a rather generic, interchangeable style (which I don't think is good for literature on the whole).

 

[BWFoster78]

I think that may be correct as a general statement, with the caveat that whatever approach you take, you have to do it well. The proof of this is that you can quite readily identify published and successful works that run such a wide range of approaches to how to write that it is hard to argue that a writer can't do X successfully. Barring some extreme hypotheticals that we would probably both come up with, I'd say it is correct that there is not one correct approach to fiction writing to the exclusion of others. I'd also say that trying to pigeon-hole all new writers into a single approach ignores the natural differences and talents of new writers, and pushes them all toward a rather generic, interchangeable style (which I don't think is good for literature on the whole).

How about this:

There is a generally accepted set of techniques advocated by professional editors and the gatekeepers to traditional publishing. These "rules" are spelled out in numerous articles, books, and blog posts and are fairly uniform. If you wish for your writing to be considered by the above-referenced group to be professional quality, it is important that you conform to these techniques.

If you wish to create art and explore the development of your own voice, you may find these rules stifling. It is possible for you to create works of great merit without using these techniques.

If you choose to follow the path of self discovery, you risk having your work be criticized out of hand as being unprofessional. Further, since these rules were developed by people whose jobs it is to sell books, it's likely you're risking limiting your potential market by ignoring these techniques.

 

[Steerpike]

No, I still don't agree with that first paragraph. I can point you to traditionally-published books that violate these so-called rules, including debut works by authors. And they were considered professional and purchased by professional editors and agents and made it onto the shelves. So clearly any statement that says to get X you have to do Y in terms of technique is false. You might look at it in terms of likelihood, because techniques are harder to do well than others, but to say you have to conform to be considered of professional quality is simply not true.

 

[BWFoster78]

No, I still don't agree with that first paragraph.

I don't understand your argument.

I wrote:

There is a generally accepted set of techniques advocated by professional editors and the gatekeepers to traditional publishing. These "rules" are spelled out in numerous articles, books, and blog posts and are fairly uniform. If you wish for your writing to be considered by the above-referenced group to be professional quality, it is important that you conform to these techniques.

I have read any number of books on the subject. They all say the same thing. I haven't seen one book written by a professional editor that espouses your viewpoint.

My paragraph says that professional editors advocate specific techniques.

I don't understand how that is not considered a fact. There are literally hundreds of books that offer the advice in some manner of following the rules.

Just because some books have been published that break some or other of these rules does not mean that the rules are invalid or imply advocating breaking the rules. Every. Single. Book. on the subject says the same thing - follow the rules!

If you don't follow the rules, you're breaking the advice of these professionals.

 

[Steerpike]

Your book says that if you want your book to be accepted as professional quality by professional editors, you have to conform. That is demonstrably false. If you want to limit it to a set of editors who will only consider it professional if it conforms (assuming they exist) then you'd have a true, albeit circular, statement (e.g. to be considered as professional by editors who only consider X professional, then you have to do X; that's self-evident, but it isn't all that informative and I wonder how many such editors there are).

I realize it is important to you that there is one right way to write fiction. I'm not sure why that is, but the idea is an absolute fiction in and of itself

 

[Aosto]

I think this has gone slightly off track, but I want to throw in my opinion. Writing is an art. Art doesn't conform to one set of rules. A Van Gough is not a Leonardo. I think some aspects need to be there, but in the end if your story is good and readable, people will buy it. A publisher could hate that you tell to much. But they could enjoy the story and believe others would as well.

 

[BWFoster78]

Your book says that if you want your book to be accepted as professional quality by professional editors, you have to conform. That is demonstrably false. If you want to limit it to a set of editors who will only consider it professional if it conforms (assuming they exist) then you'd have a true, albeit circular, statement (e.g. to be considered as professional by editors who only consider X professional, then you have to do X; that's self-evident, but it isn't all that informative and I wonder how many such editors there are).

I realize it is important to you that there is one right way to write fiction. I'm not sure why that is, but the idea is an absolute fiction in and of itself

It's not a book; it's every book on the subject that I can find written by a professional.

You have people who are technical experts on a subject saying: I've spent my entire life in this profession, and this is what I've found - following this advice will improve your writing.

Then you have people on this forum saying: No, there's no right or wrong way to do it. Just write and whatever crap you produce will be fine because it's art.

No, it isn't fine. I've seen a lot of writing that is anything but fine. All those writers would do well to learn the rules.

 

[Steerpike]

I think that is true, Aosto. I also find it unlikely that many (if any) of the professional editors and authors who write books on writing would insist that their way is the only way to write. Noah Lukeman, for example, has a very good book on writing called "The First Five Pages." In his later book, "The Plot Thickens," which as you might surmise covers plot, he mentions the fact that some popular books give the appearance that there is one correct way to approach things. He says that despite this, "[t]here are no steps, paths, no things you must do, and no things you cannot do. This is not a book of rules and mandates. I would be wary of any such book." That's coming from precisely the sort of person BWFoster is referring to, and I suspect if you could gather all of those other editors into a room and press them on the issue they'd admit that, yes, you can take a variety of approaches, so long as you do it well.

 

[Steerpike]

No, it isn't fine. I've seen a lot of writing that is anything but fine. All those writers would do well to learn the rules.

Your opinion. It isn't shared by everyone, nor should it be. Of course anyone can point of examples of books that didn't follow the rules and were a disaster. You are pointedly ignoring the existence of those that didn't follow them and were a success, and it only take one of those to refute the "absolute" nature of your contentions.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

Look guys I just wanted some help, that's all. You don't need to debate like this; it's obviously just going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. I think I got what I needed from both of you so thank you for helping. If I have any other questions I hope that the both of you can give me some more helpful tips.

 

[Philip Overby]

Just for reference:

I read about 30 pages of 50 Shades of Grey. Yes, I did it. I'm pretty sure it broke most if not all of the rules of writing somewhere along the way. That is one of the reasons it's so controversial. A lot of people lament that it is not a well-written book. Yet, it makes a ton of money. And yes, I know making a ton of money isn't reflective of good writing, but in this case the readers (I'm assuming of which haven't read a single book on writing) didn't care if all the rules were being broken.

So in that case, I support Steerpike's opinion. There is no specific, set it stone way to write and be successful. Quality and a book's worth are in the eyes of the beholder.

However, I support BW's opinion that following the industry standard is 99 percent of the time a good idea. Not all good fiction is written following this standard, but I'd say a large portion of it is.

I think Steerpike is saying there are always exceptions and ways to skirt the rules if you know what you're doing. And I think BW is saying follow the rules if you're first starting out and you'll be better off.

Long story short: show and don't tell most of the time and you'll be safe.

 

[BWFoster78]

I realize it is important to you that there is one right way to write fiction.

This is not an accurate statement. I am searching to define my own writing style. I do not seek to impose, in its totality, that style on others.

Your opinion. It isn't shared by everyone, nor should it be. Of course anyone can point of examples of books that didn't follow the rules and were a disaster. You are pointedly ignoring the existence of those that didn't follow them and were a success, and it only take one of those to refute the "absolute" nature of your contentions.

I'm really glad that most people don't share your viewpoint on this.

When I first went to my writing group, the people there took the time to share their expertise and tell me what I was doing wrong. Because they did this, my writing improved. It improved greatly and quickly.

If the people in my writing group had shared your viewpoint, my writing would have take another decade to reach the level its at now, that is if I didn't just give up completely due to lack of progress. I'm just trying to do what others have done for me: help them improve their writing.

Isn't that why people post on this forum? To get help?

 

[Steerpike]

BWFoster: You are entitled to your personal opinion of what is helpful and what is not. I think your one-size fits all solution is not good for authors, beginning or otherwise. That's my viewpoint. I have no problem with your expression of your view, or with the expression of viewpoints that differ from either one of ours. As it happens, most of the members of this community are fine with the expression of varying viewpoints.

For some reason, you take disagreement on writing issues personally. I'm sorry that you insist on doing so. A writing forum like this one has, as a strength, an exchange of ideas. Not everyone is going to agree with you, or with me, or with any other single member of the forum. It's time to come to grips with that and deal with it, rather than turning a point of disagreement with you into a personal debate.

If you look back at the course of this thread, you'll see that you offered advice, as did Ankari and Penpilot. Then you felt the need to refute their advice with a general post, and then post specifically to Ankari asking him why he was quibbling with you. Then, I made a post generally on the topic, not quoting you or mentioning you in any way, and referring only to Ankari. Then you quoted my post and started arguing with it.

Don't get me wrong - I'm fine with that. I'd probably sit and debate on a thread all day, except it seems to wear on other users (as we can also see from this thread).

I get that you think your way is right. I think my way is right, and everyone else here thinks the same about their own views on how to go about writing. I also get that you for whatever reason you have a hard time stomaching disagreement. All I can say to that is that if you are involved in a community of writers, you need to get over it. Instead of arguing back specifically with every person who gives advice different from your own, just give your advice and move on. That's my suggestion. At least until such a time as you are able to handle the idea of opposing points of view.

In any event, the particular debate here appears to have run its course. You may continue it on your own, if you wish.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

My opinions as an outsider to the argument:

Although I agree with you BWF on steering the beginning writers strongly towards a sense of show, I do feel that you rail against any position that opposes your advice.

The beginner should be allowed to experience differing viewpoints and choose which works best for them (or a composite of advice) without suffering through arguments designed to force them into a particular way of thinking. No one, especially artists, respond well to absolutes.

This is not meant as an attack on you. I think your advice and opinions are extremely valuable and well thought out. But i have to ask you...Do you really want to stifle opposing opinions? Knowing that some may choose not to respond may well rob the community of an equally valuable viewpoint, something all could benefit from...even you.

 

[Steerpike]

I think your advice and opinions are extremely valuable and well thought out.

I agree with this statement, and I think it is an important thing to keep in mind.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I'd like to weigh in and offer a similar situation. There are people with strong opinions regarding diet as well, and some, strongly argue the benefits of eating vegan, vegetarian, or low-carb. Personally, if I asked a question, "How can I eat helathier?" I'd be offended when one peoson wrote back telling me about how being Vegan is the only way to go, and if I chose to eat outside the boundaries of their well-documented style, I'd be inviting cancer, diabetes, and obesity, as though opening the door.

I think this is what has happened above. Everyone has a style which works for them, and though right now, all the cook books (or even books on how to edit you work) are leaning one direction, that doesn't mean there is not room for another opinion.

Let's put it frankly, people write books to make money. If I was writing a cook book (or a book on how to edit your writing), I'd be a fool to go against the acceptable current trend. I mean, who would buy my book?

Same thing here. BW is not wrong in offering us the benefits of a vegan diet (just my comparison, to hopefully alleviate tension about writing issues which have sparked confrontation), because for him, it works, he loves it, and he wants to share it. Could many people benefit from it? ABSOLUTELY!

But, there is nothing wrong with meat-eaters weighing in and telling what works for them. There are health benefits to a low-carb diet as well.

In reality, in diet as well as art, I think balance should be your first goal. We only live once, people, treat yourself to a bit of indulgence once in a while, and if you end up with something that makes you happy, great. It might need work to please others as well. Not everyone writes with the ultimate goal of being published. Some people do it for their own benefit, and if they want to improve their writing (by their own standards, or the professional standards set by publishers), then they should be able to gather information from any relevant source and apply it as necessary.

To anyone who found my diet analogy offensive in any way, I apologize. I studied nutrition and merely used it as a comparison to hopefully alleviate the tension derived from using writing techniques as arguments. I find it helpful to use comparisons, because people re less attached to other labels than they are the ones they apply to themselves regarding writing styles. Okay, I've practically written a novel here, so I'm going to stop, but my final note is: ALL WRITING STYLES HAVE MERIT! and even if the OP needs to show more, he doesn't necessarily need to do it in every single sentence to be successful in increasing his impact. THANKS to everyone who helped out a new writer.

 

[BWFoster78]

Do you really want to stifle opposing opinions?

Not at all. I actually thought that Steerpike and I were debating our opinions during this thread.

I do get kind of vehement about my viewpoint, obviously, but I thought that we were having an exchange of ideas. If that's not how it was perceived, I'm sorry for the confusion.

I had planned to let the matter drop after Steerpike's post saying this:

I'd probably sit and debate on a thread all day, except it seems to wear on other users (as we can also see from this thread).

Since we now seem to be debating the debate, I figured I'd respond.

Obviously, Steerpike and I have a philosophical difference. Personally, I've found our exchange enlightening. Though I still disagree just as vigorously, I understand the nature of that difference better now than I did.

 

[Steerpike]

Obviously, Steerpike and I have a philosophical difference. Personally, I've found our exchange enlightening. Though I still disagree just as vigorously, I understand the nature of that difference better now than I did.

I always find the discussions interesting and enlightening, and even if I am in disagreement on some philosophical issue, you clearly put a lot of time and thought into your posts and they're incredibly valuable to the community as a whole, so I'm glad there are no hard feelings. It is sometimes hard to tell when you're just posting back and forth in a forum.

 

[BWFoster78]

I always find the discussions interesting and enlightening, and even if I am in disagreement on some philosophical issue, you clearly put a lot of time and thought into your posts and they're incredibly valuable to the community as a whole, so I'm glad there are no hard feelings. It is sometimes hard to tell when you're just posting back and forth in a forum.

Yeah. Sorry if I gave the impression that I was upset.

I enjoyed our conversation.

Thanks.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

Well I'm glad you guys have no hard feelings, I really couldn't tell if you were just debating or angrily arguing lol. I was about to call the police because I thought a fist fight would have broken out...

911 what is your emergency?

Yes there is a fight going on and I need you to intervene!

Where is the fight?

On a forum. One is near L.A. and the other is in R'lyeh. Hurry!

XD