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So is most self-published material poorly edited?

Jabrosky

Banned
Wait, does a quality editor necessarily have to demand money for their services? I thought beta readers, who can really help with editing among other things, cost nothing. At least they don't on other writing websites I frequent.

I will say though that if a piece of work is infested with basic spelling, grammatical, and other writing errors, the kind of writing you'd expect from grade schoolers still learning to spell, I personally don't want to spend the energy correcting every single error in the text. It saps energy that could better be spent on reviewing larger elements of the work.

Come to think of it, why can so few people nowadays write properly to begin with? Surely they're exposed to proper writing millions of times in their lives (how else would they know how to read instructions on the Internet?), so mere ignorance doesn't cut it as an explanation. I bet my money on a decline in modern civilization's collective attention span, which would also explain the impatience issue mentioned earlier. In an age saturated with conveniences, people don't like having to exert energy to perform basic tasks any more.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
My understanding is that there is a cheap option to use instead of doing a full line edit. I plan to have an editor do a manuscript review for a couple of hundred dollars. This level of edit won't get into the nitty gritty but will point out major problems and areas that are in need of revision.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Is this usual? I have no idea if the book was interesting or not because I had too difficult of a time reading it :(

I don't know about usual, but it is quite common. You can go on various eReader forums and see that there are a number of readers who won't buy any self-published or indie-published book because of it. The amount of dreck out there hurts everyone. If you have a good, well-executed story, you can still find a good audience, but you have to resign yourself to the fact that some people will not buy it simply because it is self-published.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
The amount of dreck out there hurts everyone. If you have a good, well-executed story, you can still find a good audience, but you have to resign yourself to the fact that some people will not buy it simply because it is self-published.

Unfortunately, I am one of these people that has this prejudice. Not to say I'd never try self-publishing (never say never) but I typically don't buy anything that's self-published unless I know the writer or if someone I trust highly recommends it. I have so much stuff I'm reading already, I just don't have time to pick through everything and find gems. To me, it's a little like when I used to go the video store and see really cool VHS box art. If the title, premise, and box art got me, then I'd rent it. Most of the time I'd be disappointed, but sometimes I'd find a real winner.

However, if the novel is by an indie publisher, I'm more likely to pick it up. Looking at my Kindle now, I'd say it's about 99 percent traditional publishers (Tor, Del Rey, Penguin, BantamSpectra, etc.)

I think just writing something and self-publishing it without actually trying to edit or anything is lazy and is sort of indicative of this Youtube culture of "I do it just because I can." You know what I'm talking about: the videos of someone with a webcam just talking with no music or production or editing. It's just sort of lazy and most of the time, not very interesting.

I hope something eventually changes my mind, because now that I've read some good self-published fiction, it makes me a lean a bit more towards giving them a try.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Actually just came across an article stemming from Sue Grafton's comments about indie- and self-published writers, and the article transitions into things for indie writers to think about. The first one is this:
"Indie Authors – I Can’t Afford Editing, A Graphic Artist, Etc.

Yes, I’ve heard this…a lot. If this is you, it’s time to take a step back and ask yourself if you’re really ready for self-publishing. This is a business and it should be treated with the same professionalism as you would with your job. You want to tell me that indie authors who make these kinds of comments are publishing quality material when they don’t take their craft seriously enough to, at minimum, get their novel edited by a professional? Yes, a few people skip these steps and still succeed. But the vast majority don’t."

Article here: Sue Grafton, Indie Authors And Stupid Comments

With regard to beta readers, they are not editors (unless I suppose you are lucky enough to have one as a beta reader), and the truth is that while they may point out obvious editing issues, that should not be their main focus. The cheaper "manuscript review" route probably isn't a bad way to go.

Indie- and self-published writers already have an uphill battle in terms of generating sales. If you put out a shoddy product, that is going to become known and it not only has the potential to seriously impact the sales of that work, but your name as the author will become associated with it and that will hurt future sales even if next time around you do hire a decent editor.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
The cheaper "manuscript review" route probably isn't a bad way to go.

I figure, at the very least, the editor can tell you whether or not you need a line edit.

I agree with you, if you're going to represent the book as something that people should want to pay for, it needs to be treated in a professional manner.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I figure, at the very least, the editor can tell you whether or not you need a line edit.

I agree with you, if you're going to represent the book as something that people should want to pay for, it needs to be treated in a professional manner.

Yes, I agree with both points. I hadn't considered the first one, but you're right. If the editor doing the general manuscript reviews says you are in good shape, you probably are. If it is going to take more work than that, they can let you know. That may well be a more cost-effective way to approach things than to go straight to a full and complete edit.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
Yes, I agree with both points. I hadn't considered the first one, but you're right. If the editor doing the general manuscript reviews says you are in good shape, you probably are. If it is going to take more work than that, they can let you know. That may well be a more cost-effective way to approach things than to go straight to a full and complete edit.

It's a bit of a gamble, but only a tiny one. If you feel that you've done a good line edit, it's worth it. Besides, you're getting something out of the manuscript review anyway - finding out where the weak plot points are.
 
My own "Muddle Puddle and the Whistling Shell" has been self edited. I read it aloud to my children and found that is one of the best ways of doing it yourself, if you trip over words then they need changing. If it does not sound right, it needs changing till it does. I went over it so many times that I could quote whole passages, it took me longer to get it right than it did to illustrate it and some of the larger illustrations took me over two weeks for each.
It is all right to suggest that paying someone $600 to edit it for you is the best way of doing it but I'm a single parent with two young children and shoes and school uniforms take precedence over luxury. I had to do it myself and I guess that now it is available for download I shall soon find out if I've made a good job of it.
 

ALB2012

Maester
At a convention I went to, a few self-published authors stated that hiring an editor isn't that expensive. One said for $600 you should be able to get a line-by-line edit done (for an agreed upon word count). I feel that if an author doesn't hire an editor, even after beta-readers and self-editing, he's doing himself an injustice. He is also telling his potential clients that he didn't believe in the story enough to invest in editing.

I know people will post stating that coming by $600 isn't easy. This may appear snarky, but do a few things:

1) Is the phone in your hand an Iphone 4S? Are you already hyped about the Iphone 5? You have the money.

2) Do you regularly go to a bar every weekend? Skip a couple months and save up. You have the money.

3) Do you go out to every weekend to a movie and dinner? Skip a couple months and save up. You have the money.

4) Do you eat lunch in a diner/fast food restaurant? Pack your launch for two months. You have the money.

5) Do you buy the latest PS3/Xbox 360 game? Don't do so for the next couple months. You have the money.

The point is, get the money together and invest in an editor.

$600 dollars is utterly out of my budget- That is what about £450 in real money- well that is 2 weeks wages pretty much.


1) Is the phone in your hand an Iphone 4S? Are you already hyped about the Iphone 5? You have the money.- No I do not own an Iphone- I do have a mobile but my partner pays for it.

2) Do you regularly go to a bar every weekend? Skip a couple months and save up. You have the money.- NO I can't remember the last time I went to a bar. I go out every few months with my mate to the cinema.

3) Do you go out to every weekend to a movie and dinner? Skip a couple months and save up. You have the money.- See above

4) Do you eat lunch in a diner/fast food restaurant? Pack your launch for two months. You have the money.- Not often- subsidised anyway and I tend to pack food from home.

5) Do you buy the latest PS3/Xbox 360 game? Don't do so for the next couple months. You have the money.- DO not own a console-last PC game I "bought" was Diablo 3 and that wad through the sub I pay for world of war craft.

Really do you think if I "get the money together" I would spend the time self editing if I didn't have to.

Besides I am not paying someone to tell me what I should take out of the book I have written. Really not everyone can afford an editor.

Yes there are crappily edited books on Amazon- a great many of them but as I often find even "edited" books and books by the "regular" authors have mistakes in. I have read free books I thought were fantastic- errors or not and paid for books I havent got past the first chapter.

I don't tend to buy a book for free if I wouldn't actually consider paying for it. If I find a book with errors that are awful I might think hmm, should have maybe spent a little more time proof reading this but really I read for the story not to pick holes in the work of someone who may not be able to afford an editor.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
My own "Muddle Puddle and the Whistling Shell" has been self edited. I read it aloud to my children and found that is one of the best ways of doing it yourself, if you trip over words then they need changing. If it does not sound right, it needs changing till it does. I went over it so many times that I could quote whole passages, it took me longer to get it right than it did to illustrate it and some of the larger illustrations took me over two weeks for each.
It is all right to suggest that paying someone $600 to edit it for you is the best way of doing it but I'm a single parent with two young children and shoes and school uniforms take precedence over luxury. I had to do it myself and I guess that now it is available for download I shall soon find out if I've made a good job of it.
iTunes - Books - Muddle Puddle & the Whistling Shell by Stuart Evison

Money can be an issue depending on your personal situation. However, as a writer, you aren't truly capable of seeing the errors in your work like an outside reader can. You have a certain knowledge of story, setting, and characters that your readers don't have when they start on page one. Because of that knowledge you will pass over details that may leave a true reader that is naive to the story, scratching their heads. Do this enough & they put that book down without reading further.

Yes, you can use people that you know as readers. Chilari above mentioned relatives & JC mentioned friends that can do the same work for free. I'm sorry but they just can't do it the same. Primarily, they have an unconscious bias toward you, the author. Your sister, mother, & friends are not likely to give you that unbiased, professionally detached, experienced editing (content-wise mainly but grammar as well) that you can achieve through hiring a real editor.

You may very well be strong in grammar, or story, or know every rule of punctuation in the English language. You will still make mistakes because it's your writing. It's a trick of the mind that we don't see the flaws in our own work that a true professional editor will notice.
 

ALB2012

Maester
No. Even if you can't get the money by saving it, do something to get it in your hands. Ask a friend, lover, brother, mother, or anyone that shares your gene pool. Write a loan agreement with a favorable repayment plan (for you) and invest the money wisely. There is a way, just find it.

Sometimes that is not possible. My family are not well off, my parents are both very ill and very disabled. My sisters both have mortgages and a family to feed, I already have a loan and credit cards which are crippling me to pay off. Really some times people simply cannot afford it. Yes maybe we should wait...maybe we should do the best we can and go for it.
If someone doesn't want to read my book because it is self -published or there might be the odd typo then... well that is their choice.

Surely it is whether the story is engaging is important. No book, no author is perfect. I sometimes wonder if people ask too much.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Really some times people simply cannot afford it. Yes maybe we should wait...maybe we should do the best we can and go for it.

I agree that this is the case for some people. I think it is very important in that situation to have a good, competent group of readers who are going to give you honest feedback and be able to identify problems with grammar, and other such things. The odd typo doesn't bother me, but when authors make grammatical mistakes or other mistakes where they simply do not understand something, those tend to be repeated with great frequency, and I think those kind of errors will make the vast majority of writers stop reading.
 
I'm glad to see some defense of the non-professionally edited book (although that might say something for our egos/arrogance :p). In a perfect world, everyone would pay for those things, but it's not a perfect world.

Make do if you need to guys, but please at least proofread. I couldn't believe some of the material I've read recently that is out there. I self-edited half a dozen times before involving any other editors, and when it was all said and done I went back and changed some more things. At the end of the day, I felt that I did a lot more than any editor had done, which made me believe that it might not be 100% necessary for me, but some things were caught by them that I might not have been able to catch myself.

For those that are off bad for money, one possibility is seeing if anyone will do the work to add to their portfolio/resume. I recommend English majors at colleges/universities that have considered editing and might be interested in checking out your book. Sure you don't have the experience of a professional, but you do have more eyes on your work and the relationship might be mutually beneficial for the both of you short-term and maybe even long-term.
 

ALB2012

Maester
Yes that is good advice actually. I am currently going over book 2 and going "what the hell was I thinking?" or "oh look the comma fairy has been here again." I will definitely go over it again and then ask someone else to look at it. The fact is I simply cannot afford an editor. I do not have the luxury of being able to save up as at the moment there are too many things I need to pay for.

I recently had someone offer to do my cover art for free to add to her portfolio so that is awesome.
 

ALB2012

Maester
I agree that this is the case for some people. I think it is very important in that situation to have a good, competent group of readers who are going to give you honest feedback and be able to identify problems with grammar, and other such things. The odd typo doesn't bother me, but when authors make grammatical mistakes or other mistakes where they simply do not understand something, those tend to be repeated with great frequency, and I think those kind of errors will make the vast majority of writers stop reading.

Yes and if someone points it out, take it on board. At least Kindle is easy to make changes and re-upload.
 

Chilari

Staff
Moderator
Chilari above mentioned relatives & JC mentioned friends that can do the same work for free. I'm sorry but they just can't do it the same. Primarily, they have an unconscious bias toward you, the author. Your sister, mother, & friends are not likely to give you that unbiased, professionally detached, experienced editing (content-wise mainly but grammar as well) that you can achieve through hiring a real editor.

For the record my mum is a writer too and my sister has been a beta reader for others including a traditionally published author; they both know what is required from a beta reading and from the times Mum has read things I've written in the past, she's not shy about being pretty starkly honest. I certainly wouldn't ask my Dad or my brother to beta read my writing, because Dad would just say it's wonderful and tell me how proud he is of me (oh god he does this all the friggen time) and my brother, if he even read it (I'm not sure his reading comprehension is that high, he reads the Daily Mail) would go "Yeah it's alright" and say nothing else. So while certainly there is a possibility of bias from friends and relatives, it does depend on whether or not they know what they're talking about with writing and beta reading.

I can understand the argument that if you're not dedicated enough to spend money on it you're not dedicated enough to publish, but for some of, spending money on anything but rent, food and bills is impossible. I've got a job but I know other writers don't, and we're not all free agents, some of us have loved ones to support.

The other issue I have, because I almost did become a professional in this regard, is that someone might be charging for a service but how do you know they're any good at it? I stressed over this from the point of view of trying to find out how I could prove myself, and there are means through professional associations to gain some level of accreditation, but they often have some sort of time limit on them - like you can't gain full accreditation until you've been doing this professionally for a certain amount of time or until a mentor has seen a certain number of pieces of your work and assessed it over a period of several months. Point being, anyone can claim to be an editor and charge for a service, but unless they've got accreditation you can't know that what you're paying for is worth it, and once they have accreditation it gets a lot more expensive very quickly.

So you might say "You can get your book edited by a professional for $600" but that might well be money very poorly spent when someone like me is equally qualified and experienced in proofreading or substance editing but willing to trade beta reads rather than charge for them. I might have only recently started my WIP but I have six people in mind I would ask at some stage to beta read for me and who would almost certainly say yes, and a further three or four I could ask beside, whose opinions I trust; and those of them who are writers, I would offer the same in return.
 
The other issue I have, because I almost did become a professional in this regard, is that someone might be charging for a service but how do you know they're any good at it?

I recommend asking for samples of writing they've edited with their comments.

Not everyone is willing to do this, but I am guessing people that are not established or certified yet would probably be more willing.
 

Chilari

Staff
Moderator
Fair point. And I will remember that one if ever I do go professional, eg if my contract doesn't get extended come January.
 
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