The Mentor of the Main Character

[Mythopoet]

Penpilot, clearly these are people who think they can just redefine a literary archetype in order to allow themselves to make clever observations in books they are selling. You seem to agree that they can just do that. I disagree. Words have meaning and names have power and if you just change them when you feel like it significant communication is impossible. I do not think the term Mentor, in the sense of the literary archetype (other contexts were never in question), should have any meanings that clearly contradict with the classical meaning. But I realize I won't convince you of that. You like the clever definitions. So I won't argue it anymore other than to say those examples are just wrong. End of story. They aren't Mentors.

Yes, by living vicariously through the characters. And if the character's don't grow or learn, then what does the reader learn?

A reader can learn from any story that presents them with an experience they haven't had before. It doesn't matter how much or how little the characters change. It matters whether the reader is presented with new experiences. It's not the same as "living vicariously".

 

[Svrtnsse]

I have a mentor-like character in my WIP. It's Rolf, the father in the family where my MC (Enar) stays as a guest while on vacation. Rolf is a typical countryside patriarch. He's cheerful and confident and explains about life in the hillsides to Enar, who's lived all his life in the city and who's a bit insecure and outside of his comfort zone.

Rolf doesn't actively do a lot of teaching/mentoring, but he's something of a role model for Enar, both in what he does and says and in who he is (a father of a big happy family). Rolf is also the source of a lot of backstory and other kinds of infodumping.

 

[Feo Takahari]

Penpilot, clearly these are people who think they can just redefine a literary archetype in order to allow themselves to make clever observations in books they are selling. You seem to agree that they can just do that. I disagree. Words have meaning and names have power and if you just change them when you feel like it significant communication is impossible. I do not think the term Mentor, in the sense of the literary archetype (other contexts were never in question), should have any meanings that clearly contradict with the classical meaning. But I realize I won't convince you of that. You like the clever definitions. So I won't argue it anymore other than to say those examples are just wrong. End of story. They aren't Mentors.

For the purposes of this thread, I don't think it matters who's "technically a mentor" and who's "technically not a mentor." Sure, "mentor" is the word in the thread title, but what folks actually seem to be talking about is characters the MC learns from. Woody's talking about characters the MC learns from, so the things he's saying are things that other writers could potentially make use of for the topic at hand.

(This is amusingly similar to arguments over who is and isn't a "person of color.")

 

[thecoldembrace]

To kind of get things back on track, I am still curious as to how any of you use a mentor in a unique way. What has been done to make that "mentor" archetype less visible yet still there? How have others redefined this type of character that you found interesting?

-Cold

 

[Svrtnsse]

I should probably say that Rolf in my stories wasn't planned as a mentor character, he sort of just came to fill that role.

I'm not sure he's very unique or special, but he does the job.
At one point Enar gets to tag along to help Rolf with a village chore: they're repairing a hole in the roof of a building. Rolf does most of the actual work. He's the one who fixes the roof, but Enar gets to help out; he holds the ladder steady and hands Rolf the tools he needs.
The purpose here isn't to teach Enar to mend roofs, it's to let him be a part of the team.

 

[Penpilot]

Sorry for this people, this will be my last post on this.

Penpilot, clearly these are people who think they can just redefine a literary archetype in order to allow themselves to make clever observations in books they are selling.

I've ignored this twice already but I don't think I'm going to ignore it a third time. Why is it every post you start with an ad hominem attack of some sort?

First you say this.

Penpilot, words and terms mean things and you can't just change the meaning of the words to suit yourself.

You don't question where I get my information or ask for clarification. You basically call me a bulls!itter, that I'm arbitrarily making spit up.

Then you say this.

The idea of "many-many-many" definitions for a literary term is sheer nonsense.

Again, basically saying I'm BSing.

When you're trying to argue a point or convince someone of something, it doesn't lend to your credibility when you start with a logical fallacy.

When I present evidence to support my points from two respected books, you dismiss the authors as just some people trying to sound clever to sell books. Don't you find that a bit "kettle-calling-the-pot-black" considering on this board many of us, and I'm assuming you too, on it are hoping to be in the business of selling books by being clever in some way?

Why is it that when something doesn't support your view of things it just gets dismissed as something other than an honest and legitimate point of view? It doesn't get argued against. It's just dismissed.

Words have meaning and names have power and if you just change them when you feel like it significant communication is impossible.

Language isn't static. It evolves whether you like it or not. Definitions broaden and words gain different meaning. There are many-many-many examples of this in language today. Take the word "Pants" in North America it has one meaning and in the UK it means underwear. Same with words like Slag, F@g, and Bender. Bender is another word for homosexual in the UK, which made for a pretty amusing time when the movie 'The Last Airbender" came out there.

With all these different meanings of words between NA and UK, does it really hamper significant communication between someone who's British and someone who's American? IMHO not in the least. Why? Because of context. As long as a person understands the context in which a word is being used, confusion won't be a problem. All a person has to do is ask for clarification if things are unclear.

I do not think the term Mentor, in the sense of the literary archetype (other contexts were never in question), should have any meanings that clearly contradict with the classical meaning.

Soooo... who made you the arbiter of what should and should not be? I showed you my sources and why I think the way I think, and I've even shown you a source that says there are not official definitions for literary elements. Where are your sources that state there is only one forever-unchanging set of gospel definitions?

But I realize I won't convince you of that. You like the clever definitions. So I won't argue it anymore other than to say those examples are just wrong. End of story. They aren't Mentors.

To convince anybody of anything, you must put forth an good argument. So far all you've done is present ad hominem attacks, present the origin of the word mentor, say words can't have multiple meanings or evolve because nobody will understand what anyone else is talking about, and then you put your foot down by saying, "End of Story."

Sorry man, not a convincing argument in the least.

I don't ever tell anyone that my point of view or the point of view of these books is gospel and that everyone should follow them. They are just a different way of looking at things, and I brought up a broader definition because the original poster was interested in the different ways mentors are portrayed.

But apparently, unknown to my ignorant self, there is only one strict definition of what a mentor is and everyone should follow that blindly.

I'd like to apologize to everyone, especially the original poster, for jacking the thread a bit. But hopefully somewhere among this mess you can find some useful food for thought.

With everything you'll read, hear, and learn about writing, know there is no gospel. Take what you like and what makes sense to you. Discard the rest, but always keep your mind open to a different way of looking at things, even if you don't agree with it.

 

[Penpilot]

To kind of get things back on track, I am still curious as to how any of you use a mentor in a unique way. What has been done to make that "mentor" archetype less visible yet still there? How have others redefined this type of character that you found interesting?

-Cold

In the novel I just finished. I used a group of old friends as a collective mentor. Each of the friends learned lessons about themselves during the story, or before the story started, so they each had something to teach the main character. Their collective lessons added up to an eventual change in my main character.

 

[Feo Takahari]

In the novel I just finished. I used a group of old friends as a collective mentor. Each of the friends learned lessons about themselves during the story, or before the story started, so they each had something to teach the main character. Their collective lessons added up to an eventual change in my main character.

This is what I usually do, especially with large casts.

 

[ScipioSmith]

Unless they're the villain, I never do characters who teach younger characters to kill and don't do any killing themselves. If they have the knowledge and training to fight the villain, it seems unconscionable to send "teenagers with attitude" to do the job instead. (I sometimes use "old-timer" characters, but they're active protagonists with their own flaws and character arcs.)

I play with this a little bit: my mentor figure has no doubt about his ability to kill the villain, and in fact plans to do just that. His concern, and his need for the hero, is with what comes after. The mentor has rendered himself unacceptable as the Empire's champion, but he feels passionately that someone is needed to take up the post and so, having originally picked up the hero solely to use his blood for something, he becomes convinced that the hero is the right man for the job and works to mold his personality so that he will take up the position.

Meanwhile, the villain also acts as mentor to the other protagonist, molding her to become willing to destroy the Empire by allowing her to see what it is really like.

 

[Trick]

I set out to go without a mentor in my WIP and ended up with two...

My MC is a young thief and his first mentor is the head of his thieving crew and the crime lord's personal assassin. He teaches the MC how to survive working in a life of crime and then how to kill. To address previous posts, he still kills people but this is a sort of apprentice situation. He is a snarky sarcastic faux gentleman and he never laughs, only grins. My MC imitates him in everyway and hero worships him.

When my MC is older, he goes to prison. There is a burned man there that he befriends and learns from. He was a kind of magic user, in a way, who lost his abilities in a fire and was sent to prison as an arsonist. if his arresting officer had known his identity, he'd have been killed. He was a bit of a superhero/revolutionary when he was still powerful. He shares his secrets with the MC and teaches him the history of their people and their magic.

The second mentor character is basically the ideal hero figure that appears in so many books but he screwed up bad enough that it will now take my MC, a decided anti-hero, to finish his work.

 

[thecoldembrace]

I remember David Edding's Belgariad and Malloreon series that he had Belgarath and Polgara act as mentors, but I really honestly think that the real mentor behind the scenes was actually the prophecy itself. It acted as a mental guide through trials throughout the story.
What are thoughts about mentor's that transcend the fleshy mortal coil and guide through some other means?

-Cold

 

[acapes]

I remember David Edding's Belgariad and Malloreon series that he had Belgarath and Polgara act as mentors, but I really honestly think that the real mentor behind the scenes was actually the prophecy itself. It acted as a mental guide through trials throughout the story.
What are thoughts about mentor's that transcend the fleshy mortal coil and guide through some other means?

-Cold

Hey Cold, I think of Gandalf perhaps, as occupying both those roles in a way. He's a present mentor in the story, but he's also 'off-camera' quite often and is linked up with the greater power?

 

[thecoldembrace]

Hey Cold, I think of Gandalf perhaps, as occupying both those roles in a way. He's a present mentor in the story, but he's also 'off-camera' quite often and is linked up with the greater power?

I don't know about Gandalf transcending his mortal coil to guide through other means. He came back after falling. I could be wrong though.

-Cold

 

[acapes]

I don't know about Gandalf transcending his mortal coil to guide through other means. He came back after falling. I could be wrong though.

-Cold

No, you're right, he definitely came back - as Gandalf 2.0
I think his general connection to higher powers perhaps, rather than his state of life or death? What about a classic, Obi-Wan?

 

[Noma Galway]

No, you're right, he definitely came back - as Gandalf 2.0

Isn't Gandalf a Maia? That would make him a lesser god. He came back because his "task" was to defeat Sauron. Once that was done, he did go to the Blessed Realm, where I assume he went back to the Vala he serves (I believe it's Lorien or Nienna). He isn't mortal at all. (EDIT: He can die but his spirit would pretty much live on. The fact he is in a human form limits him, because that was the intent)

 

[acapes]

Isn't Gandalf a Maia? That would make him a lesser god. He came back because his "task" was to defeat Sauron. Once that was done, he did go to the Blessed Realm, where I assume he went back to the Vala he serves (I believe it's Lorien or Nienna). He isn't mortal at all. (EDIT: He can die but his spirit would pretty much live on. The fact he is in a human form limits him, because that was the intent)

Yeah, that sounds right to me - I couldn't remember all the names though