Were or Are?

[Steerpike]

I guess this is only fine when it's obvious that that's what he was thinking or something?

Yes, I think that is right. I've seen that done plenty of times myself, and so long as it is clear that the character is thinking (as it is here), I think you're fine with it. If you find that you write something that is unclear or confusing without a tag or other identifier, you can add in a tag or italics or something, or rewrite so that it is clear enough not to require them.

 

[BWFoster78]

Ok help me on this for a second. I was actually reading a book and I'll use a quote here:

He glared at the nobleman. Who does this fool think he is? He turned on his heel and left the chamber with a sour taste in his mouth.

There were no italics or quotations to let the reader know that he was thinking, "Who does this fool think he is?" to himself. I thought that not using anything was a suitable method? I guess this is only fine when it's obvious that that's what he was thinking or something?

Personally, I would never do it this way. I think it's horrible. Leaving aside the pronoun confusion making it sound like the nobleman rather than the POV character is leaving the chamber, I find the sudden switch with no indication jarring. You're reading narrative, and, all of a sudden with no warning, the tense shifts. IMHO, it's really bad.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

Personally, I would never do it this way. I think it's horrible. Leaving aside the pronoun confusion making it sound like the nobleman rather than the POV character is leaving the chamber, I find the sudden switch with no indication jarring. You're reading narrative, and, all of a sudden with no warning, the tense shifts. IMHO, it's really bad.

How would you have written it then? Using a speech tag or italic?

 

[Steerpike]

Personally, I would never do it this way. I think it's horrible. Leaving aside the pronoun confusion making it sound like the nobleman rather than the POV character is leaving the chamber, I find the sudden switch with no indication jarring. You're reading narrative, and, all of a sudden with no warning, the tense shifts. IMHO, it's really bad.

Yeah, I hear you. In fact, a couple of years ago this was a huge argument on another writing forum, and I was making the same point you are about the tense shift having to be indicated. It led to a drawn out argument with a lady who had made a living writing fiction and published a good number of novels. Her viewpoint was that any such use of italics would mark me as an amateur who couldn't communicate the fact that it was internal monologue effectively without the "crutch" of italics. Then she suggested that I go pull books off the shelves at the bookstore to see how it is done.

I did so, and found that in many cases she was absolutely right, and that the authors proceeded in the manner she indicated. I also found a lot of use of italics for internal monologue, particularly in fantasy novels. So she wasn't correct in every case. She did have en editor on her side who made the same argument she did, so I guess if you're submitting to an editor who thinks italicized thoughts are a hallmark of an amateur, you'd want to remove them.

My position now is that you can do it either of these ways. I don't really care as a reader, so long as the author has done an effective job of it. Ever since that prior debate this issue sort of comes to me unbidden when I'm reading a new book, and I do see the no-italics, no-tag presentation a lot. But I also love authors like Steven Erikson, who use italics to indicate direct thoughts.

 

[Butterfly]

There are several ways to set off internal monologue. You have to decide on which one suits your narrative in the best way possible.

1. Quote marks

2. Italics

3. wondered, believed, thought, etc, and use them without quote marks and italics.

Look at examples written by other writers, try writing your scene in the different styles, and choose which feels best to you.

 

[Steerpike]

There are several ways to set off internal monologue. You have to decide on which one suits your narrative in the best way possible.

1. Quote marks

2. Italics

3. wondered, believed, thought, etc, and use them without quote marks and italics.

Look at examples written by other writers, try writing your scene in the different styles, and choose which feels best to you.

Yes, I think all of these work. I think Androxine is making the point that you can actually go with nothing. Just put the thoughts in, and don't worry about quotes or italics or tags like "thought" or "wondered." You do see that a lot.

At least, that's what I think Androxine is getting at. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

I thought these were helpful

Dealing With A Character’s Internal Thoughts

Fiction writing: How to write your characters thoughts - by Mike Klaassen - Helium

How to write Thoughts of a Character - Writing.Com

Especially the last one when it talks about past/present tense

 

[Steerpike]

Those are good links, Androxine.

I like the suggestion about "undoing the tense shift" in the last one. In fact, this is exactly what I do in my own writing. My character's thoughts now become part of the story.

For example, instead of:

Zoe peered around the corner and watched Josh and Amy. What are the two of them talking about? They hate each other. She gathered her courage and marched over to them.

I'll now write it like this:

Zoe peered around the corner and watched Josh and Amy. What were the two of them talking about? They hated each other. She gathered her courage and marched over to them.

The quality of my examples aside, you get the picture

 

[Butterfly]

I agree, the blending is my fave, and the one I use. Though most of the time it's more trying to use.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

Those are good links, Androxine.

I like the suggestion about "undoing the tense shift" in the last one. In fact, this is exactly what I do in my own writing. My character's thoughts now become part of the story.

For example, instead of:

Zoe peered around the corner and watched Josh and Amy. What are the two of them talking about? They hate each other. She gathered her courage and marched over to them.

I'll now write it like this:

Zoe peered around the corner and watched Josh and Amy. What were the two of them talking about? They hated each other. She gathered her courage and marched over to them.

The quality of my examples aside, you get the picture

Now I can see what they mean by distracting the reader. I mean it's not so distracting that I have to stop and realize what's going on but it does interrupt the flow.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

This might be a good thread topic on its own. There's some nice stuff here hidden under the "Was or Were" title.

Anyway, I use both italics & blending into narrative to convey thought.

Typically, I write thoughts into the narrative when it's perfectly clear that it has to be inner monologue. For example, when a character is alone.

When clarity is an issue or if I want to draw attention to the thought I will use italics. If I really want the reader to notice a thought then I will separate the thought in italics into its own paragraph. These are normally very short sentences like "It shouldn't be this cold" - that would be in italics with no quotes by the way.

About the only thing I never do is use quotations for a character's thoughts. As a writer I strive for clarity. Writing thoughts like dialogue just seems like your opening the door to confusion. I'd be interested in examples where it's done effectively though.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

This might be a good thread topic on its own. There's some nice stuff here hidden under the "Was or Were" title.

Anyway, I use both italics & blending into narrative to convey thought.

Typically, I write thoughts into the narrative when it's perfectly clear that it has to be inner monologue. For example, when a character is alone.

When clarity is an issue or if I want to draw attention to the thought I will use italics. If I really want the reader to notice a thought then I will separate the thought in italics into its own paragraph. These are normally very short sentences like "It shouldn't be this cold" - that would be in italics with no quotes by the way.

About the only thing I never do is use quotations for a character's thoughts. As a writer I strive for clarity. Writing thoughts like dialogue just seems like your opening the door to confusion. I'd be interested in examples where it's done effectively though.

I understand with that last part and agree. When I see quotation I instantly think, "actually speaking out loud"

And i don't know why I named it, "Were or Are?" It should be "Were or Is?" *FACEPALM

 

[BWFoster78]

How would you have written it then? Using a speech tag or italic?

For my novel, I'm using italics. I'm kinda anti speech tag in general and try to limit them.

 

[BWFoster78]

Yeah, I hear you. In fact, a couple of years ago this was a huge argument on another writing forum, and I was making the same point you are about the tense shift having to be indicated. It led to a drawn out argument with a lady who had made a living writing fiction and published a good number of novels. Her viewpoint was that any such use of italics would mark me as an amateur who couldn't communicate the fact that it was internal monologue effectively without the "crutch" of italics. Then she suggested that I go pull books off the shelves at the bookstore to see how it is done.

I did so, and found that in many cases she was absolutely right, and that the authors proceeded in the manner she indicated. I also found a lot of use of italics for internal monologue, particularly in fantasy novels. So she wasn't correct in every case. She did have en editor on her side who made the same argument she did, so I guess if you're submitting to an editor who thinks italicized thoughts are a hallmark of an amateur, you'd want to remove them.

My position now is that you can do it either of these ways. I don't really care as a reader, so long as the author has done an effective job of it. Ever since that prior debate this issue sort of comes to me unbidden when I'm reading a new book, and I do see the no-italics, no-tag presentation a lot. But I also love authors like Steven Erikson, who use italics to indicate direct thoughts.

I can relate to the argument about needing to make the thoughts clear enough without the italics b/c I use the same reasoning about emphasizing words.

On the other hand, I'm just not sure how you make internal dialogue clear without it jarring the reader.

I'd rather be upfront about it.

 

[Jess A]

About the only thing I never do is use quotations for a character's thoughts. As a writer I strive for clarity. Writing thoughts like dialogue just seems like your opening the door to confusion. I'd be interested in examples where it's done effectively though.

Okay, it seems my post was misread, and that is probably my fault.

I meant quotes for direct, verbal speech, not for thoughts. Don't use quotation marks for thoughts - I merely put them in my example so that I could make my point clearer. My point was that he could say that part out loud. Alternatively he could 'think' it - considering he is hunting, I doubt he would say it out loud. Perhaps I did not make myself clear in the first place, apologies.

Some novels use italics for thought. Some do not. That is also a matter of choice, but it needs to be consistent. I am not going to engage in a debate over which is best. Whatever feels comfortable for you is what you should go for.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Okay, it seems my post was misread, and that is probably my fault.

I meant quotes for direct, verbal speech, not for thoughts. Don't use quotation marks for thoughts - I merely put them in my example so that I could make my point clearer. My point was that he could say that part out loud. Alternatively he could 'think' it - considering he is hunting, I doubt he would say it out loud. Perhaps I did not make myself clear in the first place, apologies.

Some novels use italics for thought. Some do not. That is also a matter of choice, but it needs to be consistent. I am not going to engage in a debate over which is best. Whatever feels comfortable for you is what you should go for.

The response was only part of a conversation between myself, Steerpike, Butterfly, & BWF. It wasn't directed at anyone, merely a comment on what I do and don't do in response to their writing preferences.

 

[Jess A]

The response was only part of a conversation between myself, Steerpike, Butterfly, & BWF. It wasn't directed at anyone, merely a comment on what I do and don't do in response to their writing preferences.

Yes I know, but I think I probably started the conversation, and I hate realising that I was unclear about a point. Anyway, this is clearly unimportant, so we may move on with the topic.

I just used your comment because it helped me with my point. Apologies.