What are your aesthetic or concept preferences for novels?

[glutton]

Me? I can't stand the chosen one trope. I feel like it completely undermines the idea that you have to choose to be a hero, to challenge the status quo, to fight against evil, instead of just staying in your comfort zone. It makes the outcome have a predetermined feel. Destiny is uninteresting to me. When characters have to choose for themselves whether to be a hero or a villain, when there is no saying how things will turn out...that is far more interesting to me.

I like the type of twist where the chosen one fails because the villain is so awesome they spit in the face of destiny, but then the actual protag succeeds and overcomes the villain because they are even more awesome. Which I've done in one of my books XD

 

[Deleted member 4265]

Oh man I forgot about the chosen one trope!! I love that one. There is something about the thought of here I am minding my own business when Bam! Destiny comes calling. I know people hate that but I love it.

My problem with the chosen one trope is that there's usually no good reason why the main character is the only person who can do x and also in my experience with those types of books the MC often has no stakes in the conflict until after he/she is dragged into it.

If all of those things can be avoided then chosen one plots are fine with me. After all I loved Harry Potter and I'm a sucker for a reluctant hero. Sadly most of the chosen one stories I've read have done one of the above.

 

[La Volpe]

Personally, I think it's been played around with, subverted, and sub-subverted so much we should just let it be.

It does seem to be a theme the human heart is naturally attracted to. Not mine, lol, but throughout history...

But all tropes have been played around with, subverted, and sub-subverted lots of times. There's nothing new under the sun, and all that.

I think the Chosen One is about the ordinary becoming extraordinary. I.e. this normal person who is just doing normal person things now suddenly has to go on a trip to save the world. So in almost all the Chosen One stories, you'll have a person being thrown into a world they're unfamiliar with. A farmboy becomes a warrior kind of thing.

While if a person just chooses to fight against evil, several things are in play. One, they're probably not that ordinary (or they're not going to make a huge difference/the badguy isn't all that strong), and two, they have have no idea what needs to be done. I.e. A "destiny" or "prophecy" or whatever is going to give them direction. And often in Chosen One stories, the evil is hidden. I.e. some symptoms are present (e.g. evil spectres spotted every now and then), but while the evil badguy regains his power, most people don't know what's really going on.

Ergo, if you want a story with a powerful badguy who is still waiting to make his move, and a brown-haired everyman main character thrown into a plan to save the world, then the Chosen One trope (to whatever extent) is a very good option to go with (not the only one, but a fairly solid one, I'd expect).

While I can understand not liking the whole theme of mundane to extraordinary, I don't understand your reasoning. The hero still chooses whether or not to go save the world. There's just more information available. Or am I misunderstanding you?

Also, since the Chosen One trope is essentially about the ordinary becoming extraordinary, just like the Portal Fantasy, I'd expect that people who hate one will hate the other as well (and vice versa).

 

[Chessie]

Me? I can't stand the chosen one trope. I feel like it completely undermines the idea that you have to choose to be a hero, to challenge the status quo, to fight against evil, instead of just staying in your comfort zone. It makes the outcome have a predetermined feel. Destiny is uninteresting to me. When characters have to choose for themselves whether to be a hero or a villain, when there is no saying how things will turn out...that is far more interesting to me.

They do choose for themselves. The inciting incident? The first plot point? Yeah...those are the places where the main character chooses to follow the path that's been presented to them. They can say no. And the chosen one trope (which I also adore) comes hand in hand with character development. Story relies on character arc. The chosen one is a plot trope. Two completely different things that work hand in hand. At no point in time does a chosen one trope mean that the character isn't doing anything. If that's the case, then the author doesn't know a basic element of story structure.

Idk if I mentioned this but I'm not into realism when it comes to fantasy. That's why I read historical fiction (to get my realism fix on). But in fantasy? Anything goes. I was thinking about this yesterday as I watched Return Of The King. I love magic heavy worlds where there's no explanation for anything...it just happens. I don't need to know the science behind the magic. I just want to know that it's there and it's dangerous. I love magic so much that I won't read fantasy books that have little of it (looking at you GOT). I mean...Joe Abercrombie gets a pass because he's hot a great writer but anyone else...shafted lol.

 

[glutton]

Idk if I mentioned this but I'm not into realism when it comes to fantasy. That's why I read historical fiction (to get my realism fix on). But in fantasy? Anything goes. I was thinking about this yesterday as I watched Return Of The King. I love magic heavy worlds where there's no explanation for anything...it just happens. I don't need to know the science behind the magic. I just want to know that it's there and it's dangerous. I love magic so much that I won't read fantasy books that have little of it (looking at you GOT). I mean...Joe Abercrombie gets a pass because he's hot a great writer but anyone else...shafted lol.

I like low realism but without a high amount of magic ie. physically over the top heroes like Beowulf who can swim for a week and rip off the arm of Grendel who carried away 30 men because he has that much God-given strength lol. My non-newbie MC girls tend to be much that way, able to match or overpower huge men, battle giant monsters in melee, deflect crossbow bolts or bullets with a sword, move faster than normal people can track, survive being impaled etc. with no explanation other than they're just that stronk XD

Also if my settings were high magic I would have to boost their superhuman abilities even more to not be overshadowed by magic lol. Melee fighters forever!

 

[Heliotrope]

I agree with you Chessie, in terms of traditional fantasy. If I am going to read traditional fantasy, like LOTR, or my all time guilty pleasure, the Sword of Truth Series (so bad! I know, I read it when I was 14 and absolutely loved it so it will forever be my guilty pleasure) I also love when it is over the top with no need for explanation. I think that was why I was not super interested in the Silmarillion because it tried to explain everything that was perfectly fine with no explanation.

Sword of Truth was so fun because of this... I'll never forget my favorite character the 'Silph". She was a gorgeous woman made entirely of quicksilver who lived in a well hidden at the very bottom of the vast Wizard's keep. When you hop into the well she will, in a seductive voice, tell you to breathe her in. When you do that the well becomes a sort of portal to other places in the world that her well is connected to, so she will carry you to another well hidden somewhere in the world. The only explanation for her was that thousands of years ago she was a prostitute and the wizards needed a quick way to travel so they used magic to turn her into the Silph.

That was all I needed. I was so captivated by the whole idea of it that I bought in hook line and sinker. lol.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Well, magic in GoT grows constantly, and it's always there subtly, similar to LoTR where magic really isn't that prevalent. Both of these worlds are magic in themselves... the long winters are magic, not science, according to GRRM. LoTR the biggest magic is subtle, background, or it's already happened (the creation of the One Ring).

One of the funniest quotes I remember from GoT starting on HBO was from Peter Dinklage (apparently before they filmed the first season and before he read the whole first book) where if I recall correctly he looks at GoT as a realistic fantasy and it doesn't have dragons... Uh, what? wait? So, I have a similar reaction to people saying there is little magic in GoT. It's all over the damned place, it kills people, brings them to life, powers the undead... etc etc. Of course some folks love fireballs exploding and lightning bolts flying, yeah, me too, but I also appreciate really subtle magic systems. Mine is a tweener, there's pyrotechnics but most of the time magic is subtle, until there is a giant whamo. But all the time, magic is everywhere... It just fades into the reality of the setting as with LoTR and GoT.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

And the smart ass in me just has to say it... all heroes in fiction are the chosen one... by the writer! heh heh. Not a damned thing those po' smucks can do about it, neither.

 

[Heliotrope]

^^^^^ So true!

I remember as a kid wondering why it was always the main character who ended up being the hero. How did the author know to pick that character and not another character? lol. I was so dumb.

I also wondered why no one ever had to stop to pee in stories.

 

[glutton]

I remember as a kid wondering why it was always the main character who ended up being the hero. How did the author know to pick that character and not another character? lol. I was so dumb.

In my newbie-MC stories the MC doesn't necessarily get to be the 'hero' in terms of being the main person to save the day or beat the biggest opponent, sometimes I have an older/more experienced supporting character fight the strongest enemies while the MC might fight a weaker opponent or do something else in the final confrontation. Like in one the MC beats the main villain, but when the godlike being the villain is trying to revive awakens anyway, the super strong mercenary girl who she met earlier steps in or in my most recent WIP the princess supporting character fights the toughest opponents, the MC just talks her down from doing a wrong thing in the end. I like to avoid the 'inexperienced MC surpasses all the more established characters just by being the MC' trope' most of the time.

 

[skip.knox]

Also, the Chosen One trope is in fact the Hero's Journey. I guess when Joseph Campbell says it, it's profound, but when others use it, it's ordinary.

It's been said a hundred times in these forums but it bears repeating: there are no bad tropes, there is only bad writing.

The corollary of this is: people use the word "trope" as a shorthand way of saying "I have read far too many badly written stories that use this."

 

[Chessie]

^^^^^ So true!

I remember as a kid wondering why it was always the main character who ended up being the hero. How did the author know to pick that character and not another character? lol. I was so dumb.

I also wondered why no one ever had to stop to pee in stories.

Hey! I though that, too! Of course now we probably all choose our heroes for different reasons. Btw I'm currently watching a Star Wars marathon with my husband and just had to make the comment that Luke is the greatest chosen one of all time. Lol. Oh, and Frodo as well. The chosen one trope has been used in some of our favorite all time stories. And to end on an interesting sidenote, I think it was last year or the year before where my Indie author group tried figuring out why a particular poorly written chosen one trope fantasy book had made it to the top of the Amazon lists. We all agreed that readers love the chosen one. I know I do. It's why I was so freaking obsessed with Skyrim and played 2000+ hours. We all like to imagine we're THE one.

Edited to add that to me, the word "trope" means a specific element of story depending on genre. Cliche is more along the lines of "ugh, I've seen this done soooo many times". At least that's how I differ them in my mind.

 

[Svrtnsse]

When threads like these pop up, I often feel like I don't know my preferences well enough to really articulate them. I know what I like to read, and I know what I like to write, and the two don't necessarily mix.

Well, I do like urban fantasy - both reading and writing - but that's a pretty vague concept.
- The main draw is the mixture of the modern and the fantastic and I really enjoy the contrast between the two.
- I enjoy reading stories with a female protagonist, but I don't know that I prefer either gender over the other.
- I like a bit of romance, but I'm happier when that's not the main focus of the story.
- I don't mind if I'm not the target audience for the story, but if I'm too far off the chart it becomes difficult to enjoy it.
- I like when I discover some new concept or a new take on some otherwise familiar concept.
- I like happy endings - but I don't necessarily write them myself.
- I'm not too keen on sadness and misery - but that doesn't mean I don't write it.
- I want things to be believable, but they don't have to be realistic.

There's obviously exceptions to all of the above, but in general I think it's fairly decent indication of my preferences.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

^^^^^ So true!

I remember as a kid wondering why it was always the main character who ended up being the hero. How did the author know to pick that character and not another character? lol. I was so dumb.

I also wondered why no one ever had to stop to pee in stories.

Wondering why nobody pees in books isn't a dumb question

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Svrt brought up something important. Do you write the things you love to read about, or is there difference?

In my case, I think there is. I think I try to write tropes I haven't liked because I've never seen them done in a way that suits me, but in my own writing I can make myself like it. I also think some things are fun for me to write, but not to read.

I know for sure there are things I love to read, but would never enjoy writing.

 

[glutton]

Svrt brought up something important. Do you write the things you love to read about, or is there difference?

In my case, I think there is. I think I try to write tropes I haven't liked because I've never seen them done in a way that suits me, but in my own writing I can make myself like it. I also think some things are fun for me to write, but not to read.

I know for sure there are things I love to read, but would never enjoy writing.

I write stuff that I don't read much of because there isn't much of it out there, at least not easily found.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Hey! I though that, too! Of course now we probably all choose our heroes for different reasons. Btw I'm currently watching a Star Wars marathon with my husband and just had to make the comment that Luke is the greatest chosen one of all time. Lol. Oh, and Frodo as well. The chosen one trope has been used in some of our favorite all time stories. And to end on an interesting sidenote, I think it was last year or the year before where my Indie author group tried figuring out why a particular poorly written chosen one trope fantasy book had made it to the top of the Amazon lists. We all agreed that readers love the chosen one. I know I do. It's why I was so freaking obsessed with Skyrim and played 2000+ hours. We all like to imagine we're THE one.

Edited to add that to me, the word "trope" means a specific element of story depending on genre. Cliche is more along the lines of "ugh, I've seen this done soooo many times". At least that's how I differ them in my mind.

I love Star Wars. Some of my favorite stories have involved a Chosen One. However, I usually don't like the trope when I come across it.

I just think it impedes the realism. Or something. I always hated the Chosen One aspect of Harry Potter, though I love Harry Potter. I often don't like protagonists that are special, or anything more than average, really, which is one reason it can irk me (there's something different or special about this person that makes them the only one qualified to beat the bad guy). I also hate prophecies (haaaate them). And royalty reveals. (Royalty reveals are the worst.) and special snowflake powers. (I'm kind of guilty of this in my WIP, admittedly. Lots of the characters have powers. But hers is kind of rare, and scary.)

I don't know...I just prefer my protagonists to be people who are trying to make their way in the world and pursue their goals without some Destiny hanging ponderously over their heads. Just people with lives that could take any direction, and aren't guaranteed to come to anything or not meet a bloody end tomorrow.

But there is the fact that I can like practically anything if done well. There are just some things I tend not to like in stories.

I could see myself enjoying a chosen one story where the 'chosen one' wasn't the protagonist.

Like, if the chosen one was the best friend or the antagonist. Or maybe it would be told like the Sherlock Holmes stories where the real protagonist is the chosen one, but the best friend narrates. Or the antagonist narrates.

Or, if the chosen one wasn't the first chosen one and he finds out his mentor was the one before him, who failed, (and who was mentored by another failed chosen one, and so on down the line) and there's nothing to suggest the current chosen one will do any better.

*story lightbulb brightens steadily*

And the mentor is this nasty, crotchety old guy who hates the hero and is really impatient with him and hates his duty of training him, and thinks of throwing in the towel and selling out to the bad guys...

I mean, I could get on board with it, if it was done well enough. *casual shrug*

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Prophecy can be done well or poorly, it all depends. It can be a very effective story telling tactic. The typical use, something akin to oh, say, Matrix, is mostly done poorly. It works well for the Matrix because of all the questions of fate and reality surrounding the character and setting. Unfortunately, it's hard for me to remember bad uses of prophecy because I have a bad memory for bad, but I know I've read them. Is Potter prophesied or just chosen one? I didn't read far enough to know, LOL.

When prophecy can make the reader ask WTF in a good way, it's fine or great. Also, consider that a prophecy can give hints to a reader for what to expect from a story: If you've got a genre bending ending or you want to set expectations in the back of the reader's mind so they aren't overly shocked by events (expectation breaking is typically bad in a commercial fiction, recall) a prophecy can be extremely effective for layering plot points into the subconscious of the reader, hopefully making sure the expectation break works.

I have to echo Skip, no trope is inherently bad, hell, no cliche is inherently bad, but lots of ways they are used are. I mean I could say I hate any book with snot-nosed twits waving wands, but that would be an injustice to Potter and snot nosed twits waving wands, I loathe Potter for many more reasons ;P But still, that only means Potter is bad for me, more power to all the folks who love snot-nosed twits waving wands.

In a sense, the bad guy (a non POV character) is the chosen one in my novel. But, readers may or may not ever get that. He also "wins", but readers may or may not get that either, LOL.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

It ruins the pages, duh.

Wondering why nobody pees in books isn't a dumb question

 

[Heliotrope]

OMG Deme you are on a roll today.

I love prophesy stories for the same reason I love mysteries or treasure hunt stories... the clues!! Oh my gosh, nothing makes me more excited than being given a few clues and trying to figure out what they mean. I love when a prophecy is abstract, and then by the end, it means something totally different then what I originally thought, or a new twist in wordplay changes the direction entirely.

Honestly, those are my favorite stories. Favorite. Hands down.

Which brings me to another of my favorite examples of 'fantasy'... Indiana Jones types stories!

I love goofy fantasy adventures like Indiana Jones, or The Mummy, or Lara Croft...