glutton
Inkling
What is the 'reason' for him to have short hair then, because most people of his culture and gender have short hair?
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What I'm Saying Is, The Search For Equality Is Pretty Messy
- Thread starter A. E. Lowan
- Start date
What is the 'reason' for him to have short hair then, because most people of his culture and gender have short hair?
BWFoster78
Myth Weaver
That's a really well-written piece.
If you think that doesn't further the story, I think you're mistaken. It's purpose is to show life in the Legion. Showing is, in most cases, much more engaging than telling the reader something. If the author had written, Life in the Legion kinda sucked, you probably wouldn't have liked this story much. By him so effectively conveying what he wanted to, he drew you into the story.
This isn't something that should be cut; it's something we should all emulate.
I haven't read this story and have no idea how it continues. I seriously doubt, however, that the character's attitude about his life in the Legion is in any way irrelevant to the story.
BWFoster78
Myth Weaver
I didn't say he had short hair.
The point is that, ideally, I wouldn't mention his hair at all if there's no story reason for doing so.
glutton
Inkling
BWFoster78
Myth Weaver
Not as much of a contradiction as it is a misstatement.
I was trying to say:
If there is no reason for him to have long hair, I'll leave the concept of his hair fluid in my mind. It's not that I won't mention that he has long hair as much as that he'll end up with whatever hair I need him to have for the story.
Perhaps I'll start out with a mental image of him as having long hair. I won't mention it, however, and, should a story reason come up for me to change it, I'll simply adjust my image.
So what I've gathered is the reason you don't include people of different races, sexuality, or people with long hair is because you need a reason for that to make sense in the story? If any of these things interferes with tight writing, then it's not worth putting in.
I think of some of my favorite authors and imagine what their stories would be like if they just cut every single superfluous thing. It might help the stories in some instances, but might make them less engaging because there's a spark missing from it. I suppose if you can light that spark in a different way, then that's what you should aim to do.
I've come to the conclusion that you have no interest in including anything that wavers from your own model of writing (this "revelation" happened about 12 pages ago). And that's fine, stick to your guns. But I think several people have come up with many valid reasons why to include a more diverse cast in your writing.
I imagine this is how you feel when you try to convince writers to follow certain kinds of writing rules. It just makes sense to you. It frustrates you when people don't adhere to them because you think it makes their writing weaker for it. I believe you honestly are trying to help people improve their writing and this is a good goal for any writer. Try to help others around you.
Well, for many of us, diversity just makes sense to us, because it makes our worlds that much more interesting. So perhaps us trying to convince you is in hopes that it will help your writing in some way.
I think of some of my favorite authors and imagine what their stories would be like if they just cut every single superfluous thing. It might help the stories in some instances, but might make them less engaging because there's a spark missing from it. I suppose if you can light that spark in a different way, then that's what you should aim to do.
I've come to the conclusion that you have no interest in including anything that wavers from your own model of writing (this "revelation" happened about 12 pages ago). And that's fine, stick to your guns. But I think several people have come up with many valid reasons why to include a more diverse cast in your writing.
I imagine this is how you feel when you try to convince writers to follow certain kinds of writing rules. It just makes sense to you. It frustrates you when people don't adhere to them because you think it makes their writing weaker for it. I believe you honestly are trying to help people improve their writing and this is a good goal for any writer. Try to help others around you.
Well, for many of us, diversity just makes sense to us, because it makes our worlds that much more interesting. So perhaps us trying to convince you is in hopes that it will help your writing in some way.
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buyjupiter
Maester
I've found a lack of diversity in all writing in the 21st century to be quite mind-boggling. I include it in my writing because we're still having to have this discussion about representations of non-WASP cultures. In 2013.
I get BW's point that he doesn't go in depth with character description, because it isn't relevant to the story line, and I do a lot of the same thing. I don't do a lot of character description because I'm not as interested in it and it's more stuff to keep track of. (I'm lazy). I can't remember if I had my MC with short blonde curls in the beginning and long brunette hair by the end. (I have had this happen.) For me, it's better to just avoid that kind of thing. It also ties into what I think about first person narration and self-description, and since I do a lot in first person, well I don't really do much with description. My characters aren't vain, so I don't describe them. I describe their thoughts/actions, because that is something that a person thinks about.
However, in one story I have going I have two characters (men) in love with each other. I never say they're gay, but this fundamental part of themselves is important to the story. It forms who they are and how they behave in other (potentially) romantic situations. There's a bit of misunderstanding at the beginning, until my MC runs into his ex and they start arguing in front of my MC's lady (whom he's escorting at the time). I would say that in this case, having the MC's sexuality come into play makes it more difficult to get to the goal of getting through the forest unscathed in time for the lady's ritual something. Having the tension of an old lover's quarrel, in the midst of being lost in the forest, having to deal with losing an incarnation of godhood again (MC's lover is one aspect of a tri-part deity, and this is how they "broke up" the first time), all of this is important to my story. If I wrote that my MC met this random guy on the road and he lead my MC and lady through the forest...it'd be hella boring.
I didn't set out to write a story about a lover's quarrel, but this is what these characters insisted upon doing.
We could go on and argue about whether to add diversity or not and what it does for the story, but...
I think we're missing something from this discussion.
I don't think anyone is really arguing against actual diversity. If that's needed for the story, go for it. If it isn't, don't add it just for the sake of adding diversity. Don't add in a token-black-guy just to be able to say you have ethnic diversity. Add him because he's needed in the story. I don't think anyone would really argue against that, but we're still throwing comments back and forth over it.
Wouldn't it be better to talk about what's needed for the story, for a story?
Different stories call for different elements to be included. Different writers write different stories. Scenes and events that have no real impact on the outcome of the story may still be added as they can contribute something else that improves the reading experience. In the same way, important events can be distilled into a mere handful of words if that's what fits the story best.
At this point the discussion shouldn't be about whether diversity is needed or not, it should be about what's needed to further a story. If we can't even figure that out then how can we say that adding diversity will make it better?
Well, I think we can go into that really nebulous territory of "each story gets what it needs." This is pretty much different for every single writer. Some may think a story needs more world-building, while some may think it needs more descriptive writing. Others may say cut the description and focus on characters. Others may say, characters are nothing without tension.
If we're discussing why to include diversity in a story, I think several people have given valid reasons.
1. To flesh out the world that your characters are inhabiting
2. To give a particular image to character so he or she resonates with your readers
3. To allow for a wider range of the human experience in your writing
4. To make each member of your cast stand out in some way (as Feo highlighted discussing details helped his writing)
Don't all these things further a story in some way? That's why I think these are valid arguments for including more diversity.
These are just some points. However, if all of these points are rejected and argued against, then OK, what else is there to discuss on the topic?
BWFoster78
Myth Weaver
Phil,
I think you probably misunderstand my definition of superfluous. My guess is that any well-edited book wouldn't contain much in the way of anything that is truly superfluous. It seems to me that an editor's main battle (old school ones anyway; seems like the way the business works now, the editors don't care much since, as long as you have a name, you'll sell regardless) is convincing writers that certain elements aren't needed.
I think you probably misunderstand my definition of superfluous. My guess is that any well-edited book wouldn't contain much in the way of anything that is truly superfluous. It seems to me that an editor's main battle (old school ones anyway; seems like the way the business works now, the editors don't care much since, as long as you have a name, you'll sell regardless) is convincing writers that certain elements aren't needed.
BWFoster78
Myth Weaver
I'll give trying to figure out the essential elements a story must have a go:
1. A relatable character - I can't think of a way to tell an entertaining story without a character, and having the character be in some way relatable seems to me to be essential to capturing the reader's interest.
2. An event or series of events (including "events" that are purely internal) that utilize some method of engaging the reader - Perhaps some readers can tolerate a "story" in which nothing happens, but I don't think I can. And it seems to me that, in order to engage a reader, you need a method of engagement. I've found tension to be the easiest method, but I think both a deep POV and humor are great options. (Still looking for other methods of engagement if you have suggestions...)
Though there are other things that certainly help a story's entertainment value, I can't think of anything else that I would deem "essential."
Great question, btw, Svrtnsse.
They're all good points and I think I've mentioned at least the first one myself in this thread at some point. Diversity is great for adding depth to the world. I can't argue against that.
What I can argue against is whether it's needed for the story. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. There's nothing categorical about it. You can't say adding diversity will always make it better (or worse).
I'm all for adding diversity when there's a reason for it (in a short story I wrote a chocolatier hires a dark skinned elf as his shop-assistant/apprentice specifically because dark skin is supposed to bring good fortune when dealing with chocolate magic), but to add it just to be diverse, without putting thought into why is something I'll oppose.
You need to have a reason for what you're doing. The reasons you gave above are all great, but they're not always needed to just tell the story (at least from a hypothetical point of view).
If we're talking about just the bare minimum to tell a story, then yeah, maybe some of these points may not be so important. But for me, writing involves much more than just the bare minimum.
We could get into "what is the storyline reason to make your MC a straight white male?" the same as we could get into "why should I add diversity just to add it?"
Really, truly, honestly, we as writers all have to figure things out on our own. If you don't think adding diversity helps your writing, then leave it out. However, those of us that do value adding diversity will do so and hope our writing comes out better for it.
One more point: perhaps not every single, solitary story you write needs to have a completely diverse cast. But would it hurt to explore something different for one of your stories or novels? Tell the stories you want to tell, of course, but just imagine if you change some things here and there how it could enrich your story. If you feel like it wouldn't, then carry on and be happy with what you're producing.
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Yeah, but even apart from this, the idea that inclusion of diversity would somehow interfere with the bare minimum elements and make a story weaker is insupportable on its face. It's just a proposition that makes no sense, and restating it over and over doesn't alter that.
I'd just like to point out that I do like to flesh out the world and add little details about this or that to give the world more life. I believe a deeper sense of life in the world brings on a more pleasant reading experience.
In some cases it does, and in published fantasy it seems you almost always find a certain amount of it. If you're writing a thriller set in the real world, you may not do much of it at all, and if you want lean, fast prose, that's where you'll find most of it. But even there, including diversity doesn't have any impact on it. It's a straw man argument that attempts to cast a personal preference as a tenet of good writing.
BWFoster78
Myth Weaver
Yeah, just stating that something is or isn't so over and over again doesn't prove anything.
Wait. Didn't you just...
I'm fine with this except for one thing.
Trying to add diversity for its own sake rather than for a specific reason (pretty much any reason will do) really may detract from the story you want to tell in a negative way.
If you're going "this guy's dark skinned because he's from the deep south", then that's fine.
If you're going "I only have white guys in my story, I'll change this irrelevant sidekick to a black woman to spice it up a little and get some cred with the chicks", then you're doing it wrong.
May.
99.99% of the time, I doubt that it would. Seriously, if I mention that character X is black when I introduce him, what's the negative way in which that detracts from my story?
In all honesty, I can't think of any reasonable reason it would detract from the story.
I still feel you ought to have a reason for him being black, even if just for yourself - especially if he's showing up in a location where black people are a minority/rarity. I'm assuming you wouldn't put a black guy where it wouldn't make intuitive sense for him to be without providing an explanation?