What is more important? Plot, or storytelling ability?

[Finchbearer]

That's not at all what I said - nor some others.

Mind you, it all depends on your precise and personal definition of plot and story. If we can't agree on the same definition (and we won't) then the argument becomes a tad moot.

I think of myself, primarily, as a storyteller - but when I think of what a storyteller does... they construct a story around a plot.

I haven’t formed an opinion yet, so I’m just trying to gather what others have said. Some have said that the two must work together, because they are intrinsically linked, others have said that plot is less important if there is enough captivating storytelling going on.

I would agree that as a reader, on Prince of Spires point, that some authors have written books with little to no plot, just amazing storytelling, and other authors have placed enormous importance on plot, but might only have given the reader mediocre storytelling and prose style.

 

[The Dark One]

I haven’t formed an opinion yet, so I’m just trying to gather what others have said. Some have said that the two must work together, because they are intrinsically linked, others have said that plot is less important if there is enough captivating storytelling going on.

I would agree that as a reader, on Prince of Spires point, that some authors have written books with little to no plot, just amazing storytelling, and other authors have placed enormous importance on plot, but might only have given the reader mediocre storytelling and prose style.

OK that leads to another interesting discussion (which informs this discussion)...

List any books that you believe have:

- strong plot but weak storytelling
- weak plot but strong storytelling

I can't think of a single book that has (what I would call) a strong plot but the story is poorly told.

Mind you, I can think of a few books that have minimal plots (or indiscernible plots) but are still very well told.

The Alchemist for example.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I would almost suggest that plot is being splintered from storytelling's whole, and don't get me wrong, this can be useful, like breaking "prose" or "Voice" or "grammar" or whatever from storytelling, but to ask which is more important is to suggest that one isn't a part of the other.

Side note: A bunch of disconnected stories can be great because it builds suspense over HOW these parts will become a whole. Typically, there's a threaded connection to tease the reader, but how they end up relating is left to the imagination.

 

[Finchbearer]

OK that leads to another interesting discussion (which informs this discussion)...

List any books that you believe have:

- strong plot but weak storytelling
- weak plot but strong storytelling

I can't think of a single book that has (what I would call) a strong plot but the story is poorly told.

Mind you, I can think of a few books that have minimal plots (or indiscernible plots) but are still very well told.

The Alchemist for example.

Anything biographical, non-fiction or fiction doesn’t need a plot as such, but the appeal is found in the interesting life story.

Educated by Tara Westover is one example, My Brilliant Friend by Elena Ferrante is a fictional example. Both brilliantly told ‘stories’ with strong biographical elements.

Brandon Sanderson does unfortunately come to mind for a pretty boring prose style, but solid enough plot, which incidentally is why I haven’t continued to read his books. Too formulaic for me.

George RR Martin brings a lot of subplots to make one long saga-like drama, and I like that it blends plot and storytelling voice.

 

[Finchbearer]

I think as a reader I go for storytelling voice over strong, easily recognisable plot. As a writer, that’s what I aim for!

 

[pmmg]

I think plot is down current from story telling. Where as story telling is the whole, plot is just part of the whole. Not having a great plot can be overcome, but not telling a story well cannot.

Why does this come up? Is there something in your own writing that leads to this question?

 

[Finchbearer]

Yes to the last question you asked. With my writing at where it is now, I am finding my voice, but then this seemed to have jettisoned itself away from the plot, and there I have found them to have become two separate and distinct entities. And I thought it’d be an interesting thread discussion, and useful to hear other people thoughts.

 

[JBCrowson]

An analogy to politics may be relevant: some politicians have well thought out policies but deliver speeches about them poorly. Others have little in the way of mapped out policy but are phenomenal orators. The best (most successful?) blend the two to some degree.

With oral story telling the teller can vary the pace line by line, pause dramatically, inflect and so on so as to enhance their delivery beyond the simple words spoken. When reading to myself, I do not read so dramatically, but I can also stop to reflect on a sentence / paragraph, or re-read to clarify or savour a passage. For me this means when reading I appreciate plot more explicitly and when listening the telling more.

 

[pmmg]

Yes to the last question you asked. With my writing at where it is now, I am finding my voice, but then this seemed to have jettisoned itself away from the plot, and there I have found them to have become two separate and distinct entities. And I thought it’d be an interesting thread discussion, and useful to hear other people thoughts.

So, what story are you telling, if you have wandered far from the plot? Do you feel you are telling a story at all? Is it the same story? or we your stumbling into a different one?

 

[Finchbearer]

So, what story are you telling, if you have wandered far from the plot? Do you feel you are telling a story at all? Is it the same story? or we your stumbling into a different one?

I wouldn’t say I’ve wandered away from the plot, but just as I’m learning and writing more, basically, I’m finding that they are separate beasts, and have their own needs to the work overall.

 

[Jackarandajam]

Which is more important to an artist, what they paint or how they paint it?

Which makes a painting great?

 

[pmmg]

I am finding my voice, but then this seemed to have jettisoned itself away from the plot

I wouldn’t say I’ve wandered away from the plot

These don't go together

If the drift I am getting is that the characters are doing their own things, having interactions and finding other things to do than get on with the plot, I think that is generally a good sign.

A plot of, girl decides to go visit to the volcano and talk to the fire gods, is about enough to fill 2 pages without all that other fun stuff that happens. Everything else makes them alive.

 

[Jackarandajam]

We do believe in the existence of an actual definition for both storytelling and plot... right?

I was just reading back and maybe I've been making some assumptions here.

If your story doesn't have a plan, or at least look a helluva lot like it does once it's finished, it doesn't have a "weak plot," it doesn't have a plot at all, and it isn't a story.

Right?

All paintings are painted, and all paintings have a subject. No painter has ever produced a painting that neither resembled anything or was meant to symbolize anything, but a "subjectless painting" would be the same as a "plotless story." It's inherently impossible. My closet wall isn't "a painting" any more than my grocery list is "a story."
We would just be arguing petty semantics at that point; "well TeChNiCaLlY if YOU think your flat, solid-colored burgundy closet wall is a painting..." or "but if has words, must be story, yes?" No.

Think of a plot of land. It either has a border or it doesn't.
So if it is a plot, it makes sense within itself. It leads from something to something that makes it a thing.
If there is no border, it isn't a plot.

Think of "the gunpowder plot," or when someone is "plotting" something. The word is directly synonymous with "plan."
Nobody who has a genuine accident has ever been accurately described as having "plotted" it.

My day doesn't have a plot just because I was in it and did stuff, that doesnt make it a story. If that was the case then both plot and storytelling would mean literally nothing.
And if that's the case, I'll sell you a great novel tomorrow. 100k words, I'll start banging it out now. Give you a good deal on it too.

Haven't you ever heard somebody say something like "I have a story. I went poop. The end." Everybody laughs. The joke is that it ISNT a story because it has no point.

So yeah, I go back to my first answer: "yes."

Cause if it don't have a plot, it ain't a story, and if it's a story, it has a plot.

 

[Finchbearer]

These don't go together

If the drift I am getting is that the characters are doing their own things, having interactions and finding other things to do than get on with the plot, I think that is generally a good sign.

A plot of, girl decides to go visit to the volcano and talk to the fire gods, is about enough to fill 2 pages without all that other fun stuff that happens. Everything else makes them alive.

It’s more that when I first started writing I wrote with the plot very much in mind throughout the prose, whereas now where I (think) I have developed more of a style and a voice, the plot has become separate, more of an undercurrent that holds the strings of the storytelling together. It’s not that I no longer have a plot (maybe I’ve figuratively lost the plot) but I’m writing in a more autonomic way. You’ve got to fill the gaps in between plot points anyway, which in an average length novel, there’s a lot of filling to do - and that in my view is where the storytelling happens.

 

[The Dark One]

It’s more that when I first started writing I wrote with the plot very much in mind throughout the prose, whereas now where I (think) I have developed more of a style and a voice, the plot has become separate, more of an undercurrent that holds the strings of the storytelling together. It’s not that I no longer have a plot (maybe I’ve figuratively lost the plot) but I’m writing in a more autonomic way. You’ve got to fill the gaps in between plot points anyway, which in an average length novel, there’s a lot of filling to do - and that in my view is where the storytelling happens.

Pretty much the way I see it.

And let's not forget the subplots which have their own plot points but also concatenate off the main plot points.

That can be fun.

 

[Penpilot]

OK, here's my attempt at an analogy of plot vs storytelling.

Let's take a car. To me, if a car was plot and storytelling combined. Storytelling would be all the aesthetics and comforts of the car. The plot would be all the basic mechanics that allow for its basic functionality.

The storytelling is the paint, the shell, the seats, the heater, the supercharger, etc., anything that makes the car eye-pleasing or gives it comfort or functionality beyond the rudimentary.

Plot is the frame, the motor, the steering, the rims, but with no rubber, etc. If you're riding around on the bare plot, you're sitting on bare metal with no shocks.


The plot will get you from A to B, but it's going to be one uncomfortable ride. You freeze your butt in winter. You burn your butt in summer. If you hit a pothole, you're going to get flung out of the plot, and boy it's going to hurt when you land. It's no fun driving only the plot.

The storytelling, you can sit inside all the pieces of the car that are storytelling, and be very comfortable and warm in the dead of winter, and look really cool in the fancy shell with the glorious paint in the shine of summer, but the storytelling pieces can't take you anywhere. With zero plot, you don't move. There's only so long you can sit in the comfort of storytelling looking all cool before it gets old.

 

[The Dark One]

You left out changing gears...

 

[Devor]

When we pair them like this as two halves of a novel, I think of plot as everything that happens - not just the big plot points, but the full concept, from characters to conflict to settings to backstory and scene choice and whatever else - while storytelling is the voice, the detail, the subtle intricacies of how they're all woven together. Plot is the what, while storytelling is the how.

To me, this is a good breakdown because they're two different kinds of skills - two different parts of the brain. Storytelling is more spontaneous, emotional, fluid. Plotting is more deliberate, analytical, complex. And in that sense, when it comes to what's on the page, there's overlap. You can decide that your character has certain quirks that play out over time, or those same quirks can come from that voice that happens as you write, and sometimes it's a little of both at once.

I said before that, while I definitely value a great plot, storytelling is more important, and that's true if it's either/or. But if you're more like 70/30, great at one and so-so at the other, it could probably go either way.

But, if you're trying to improve your writing, I don't find this distinction to be that helpful. I think it's better to develop your characters, plot points, setting, what-have-you, in a more streamlined way. It doesn't help to view the character's concept and arc as separate from the way the character is expressed in the book, but to develop the character with a full concerted effort, if that makes any sense.

 

[skip.knox]

I wouldn’t say I’ve wandered away from the plot, but just as I’m learning and writing more, basically, I’m finding that they are separate beasts, and have their own needs to the work overall.

As an author, you are quite right to look at the story from every angle. Plot, pacing, character, setting, theme, all of it. At any particular moment, you'll be looking most closely at one or maybe a couple of these. That makes them the most important elements *at that moment*. At another time, other elements will come to the fore in your consideration.

Also, there's been an assumption so far that we're talking about the actual writing process, and most likely the first draft or at least early drafts.There's also the planning phase, at least for those who indulge in that. During planning or outlining, plot does tend to step forward more (not always!). During editing, after the novel is largely written but not yet ready, I do tend to look at each element more specifically and separately, with the goal of somehow getting all the gears to mesh.

So, with a bit of labor, I've managed to wrangle this question around to our favorite answer: it depends. <grin>

 

[Penpilot]

You left out changing gears...

It's ummm.... an *runs to google* an electric car. Electric cars only have one gear.