what's your opinion on using anime like colored hair in fantasy?

[Tom]

Then I imagine it would no longer fit the description of Mary Sue.

Exactly. The difference between Mary Sue and unreliable narrator is that the Mary Sue is upheld by the author as perfect. He or she can do no wrong, there are no consequences to his or her actions, he or she is often ridiculously overpowered and inexplicably good at everything, and characters who don't like the Mary Sue are either punished, shown to be total idiots (or evil), or are converted by the Sue's sheer awesomeness. Often something happens in the story to prove to everyone that the Sue is the most Speshul and amazing character. I like to call that "Word of God", since I can just see the author in the background, going, "See? See?! Of course he/she's the best!"

In my opinion, the Mary Sue trope is defined by its lack of self-awareness. A Mary Sue's author doesn't know (or want to know) that their character is unrealistic, and often gives the Sue faux flaws to prove that he or she isn't perfect.

If the author is aware their character's too perfect, they're either setting that character up for some massive development, or are playing the Sue trope ironically. I've done that a few times myself; it can be fun.

 

[X Equestris]

What's with the hate on Mary Sues? The Mary Sue trope can be combined with unreliable narrator- for example, if a character describes himself as a perfect and flawless that is a clever way to show off his flaws like how arrogant, narcissistic and proud he is and why some people hate him

That character is then no longer a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Sues are treated by the story as perfect, and whatever flaws they have tend to not actually be flaws. Most of the time, any character that dislikes the Sue is automatically a bad person.

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[Mythopoet]

and whatever flaws they have tend to not actually be flaws.

Yeah, Mary Sue "flaws" tend to be the "Oops, I'm slightly clumsy, but everyone thinks it's absolutely adorable and loves me all the more for it" kind of "flaws".

 

[Tom]

Yeah, Mary Sue "flaws" tend to be the "Oops, I'm slightly clumsy, but everyone thinks it's absolutely adorable and loves me all the more for it" kind of "flaws".

Oh hey, Bella Swan! I'd recognize you anywhere.

 

[Miskatonic]

Definitely something fun to play around with, and it could add spice to the visuals of your world! It wouldn't work in a strictly historically-based fantasy, but since you have a lot of non-humans or alternate humans, I don't see why not.

The caveat here is that you don't want to make it seem like only Important/Interesting/Special characters have brightly colored hair and eyes, and everyone else is normal and "boring" because that has been done to death. Otherwise your story might stir up shades of bad fanfic and anime cliche. Time for a rousing game of Spot the Anime Protagonist!

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

Yeah, Mary Sue "flaws" tend to be the "Oops, I'm slightly clumsy, but everyone thinks it's absolutely adorable and loves me all the more for it" kind of "flaws".

Wait so you're saying that I shouldn't have a character's only flaw be that he loves too much? Dang, I thought that was compelling [/sarcasm]

 

[Miskatonic]

Don't forget to walk around with your mouth partly open and a deer in the headlights stare. Can't imagine anything more attractive to vampires.

 

[BWFoster78]

Yeah, Mary Sue "flaws" tend to be the "Oops, I'm slightly clumsy, but everyone thinks it's absolutely adorable and loves me all the more for it" kind of "flaws".

So, if I understand correctly, your point is that we shouldn't use Mary Sue characters because, for whatever reason, they're bad?

Then, you refer to Bella Swan, the protagonist of a series that has millions of fans and has made its author gobs and gobs of money, as an example of a Mary Sue.

If Bella Swan is a Mary Sue, then perhaps readers really, really like Mary Sues. Perhaps we should all use them in our writing.

I'll happily make the same "mistakes" as Stephenie Meyer all day long if I can achieve the same results!

 

[Mythopoet]

So, if I understand correctly, your point is that we shouldn't use Mary Sue characters because, for whatever reason, they're bad?

Then, you refer to Bella Swan, the protagonist of a series that has millions of fans and has made its author gobs and gobs of money, as an example of a Mary Sue.

If Bella Swan is a Mary Sue, then perhaps readers really, really like Mary Sues. Perhaps we should all use them in our writing.

I'll happily make the same "mistakes" as Stephenie Meyer all day long if I can achieve the same results!

I never referred to Bella Swan. That was Tom Nimenai. I've never read any of the Twilight books or seen any of the movies so I have no idea what she's like.

When I wrote that example I had more in mind some of the anime reverse harem protags (meaning, one prominent girl protag who is surrounded by a group of male characters who are all in love with her) who have a bad habit of tripping over everything and also over nothing just so one of their love interests can catch them and they can look meaningfully into each other's eyes. But other than their constant need to have a man catch them before they fall over, they tend to be practically perfect in ever way, hence just everyone being desperately in love with them. It's not a trope I'm a fan of and it seems to have a more limited audience than Twilight, for what it's worth.

 

[X Equestris]

So, if I understand correctly, your point is that we shouldn't use Mary Sue characters because, for whatever reason, they're bad?

Then, you refer to Bella Swan, the protagonist of a series that has millions of fans and has made its author gobs and gobs of money, as an example of a Mary Sue.

If Bella Swan is a Mary Sue, then perhaps readers really, really like Mary Sues. Perhaps we should all use them in our writing.

I'll happily make the same "mistakes" as Stephenie Meyer all day long if I can achieve the same results!

You know why Twilight was successful with Bella? Because she's largely a blank slate for the reader to project themselves onto. That's how much of the romance genre works with its protagonists. Another factor behind Twilight's success was the vast Hatedom it spawned. A lot of people wanted to see how bad it was.

The issue with Mary Sues as protagonists is that they're boring. A story needs tension, and Mary Sues tend to destroy that. It's hard to have tension when the character doesn't ever struggle with anything. They have a habit of smashing the suspension of disbelief to pieces.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

I think the Mary Sue is popular if and only if the Sue is so bland, so blank a slate, that readers can insert themselves into the story. This is generally only popular in YA stories, like Eragon or Twilight. They are a means of wish fulfillment and escapism for people who are not perfect (e.g. all of us) and possess a certain amount of angst (e.g. every teenager). That doesn't mean the trope is a good one to use. In fact most strongly caution against it because you're chances of pulling a Twilight using this trope are...minimal.

I done been ninja'd.

 

[BWFoster78]

You know why Twilight was successful with Bella? Because she's largely a blank slate for the reader to project themselves onto.

I don't see her as a blank slate at all. Or a Mary Sue.

Another factor behind Twilight's success was the vast Hatedom it spawned. A lot of people wanted to see how bad it was.

I quite enjoyed Twilight. It was a fun read. Kept me turning the pages.

 

[Nimue]

Oh, come now. You can't get to the third paragraph of a Showcase post, but this opening hooked you?

My mother drove me to the airport with the windows rolled down. It was seventy-five degrees in Phoenix, the sky a perfect, cloudless blue. I was wearing my favorite shirt — sleeveless, white eyelet lace; I was wearing it as a farewell gesture. My carry-on item was a parka.

Twilight was a phenomenon born of timing and marketing as well as content, and imitators are a dime a dozen. I daresay it's not the best writing model to chase after.

 

[BWFoster78]

Nimue,

I've found that getting inside a character's head really works to engage my attention. Midnight Sun does that better than any book I've ever read. Period.

EDIT:

In fact, think about this: no book I've ever read that was authored by someone on MS has provided the same entertainment value to me as the Twilight series did. Meyer obviously did something right.

 

[Miskatonic]

Oh, come now. You can't get to the third paragraph of a Showcase post, but this opening hooked you?



Twilight was a phenomenon born of timing and marketing as well as content, and imitators are a dime a dozen. I daresay it's not the best writing model to chase after.

The demographic was teenage girls starting to have romantic ideas about boys and their middle aged mothers.

 

[Nimue]

Ooookay. I'm going to suggest you read the Vlad Taltos books by Stephen Brust, because...because there are other options for you out there, and then I'm going to back away from this conversation slowly.

Edit: Yes, I understand why you might not agree with all the Twilight backlash--it was never that awful, just that popular. But saying "If it was successful, it must be good"/"If you want to be successful you need to write like that" isn't necessarily true. "Awful" and "Ideal" aren't the only two choices.

 

[BWFoster78]

Ooookay. I'm going to suggest you read the Vlad Taltos books by Stephen Brust, because...because there are other options for you out there, and then I'm going to back away from this conversation slowly.

Again, I enjoyed the crap out of the book. So did my wife. So did a lot of people.

I think that the things Meyer did well vastly outweighed her perceived flaws.

 

[Tom]

Again, I enjoyed the crap out of the book. So did my wife. So did a lot of people.

I think that the things Meyer did well vastly outweighed her perceived flaws.

I'm just going to leave this here...Das_Mervin's Twilight Sporkings

 

[Miskatonic]

Again, I enjoyed the crap out of the book. So did my wife. So did a lot of people.

I think that the things Meyer did well vastly outweighed her perceived flaws.

Justin Bieber has millions of fans as well. Same demographic, go figure.

 

[X Equestris]

Again, I enjoyed the crap out of the book. So did my wife. So did a lot of people.

I think that the things Meyer did well vastly outweighed her perceived flaws.

She prided herself on never doing research. Which resulted in such wonderful gems as an island off the west coast of Brazil( Brazil doesn't have a west coast) and a family keeping their wealth through the Great Depression by being involved in financial institutions( financial institutions were easily the hardest hit by the stock market crash). You'll never be able to convince me that that is a good approach.