Women in fantasy

[Ireth]

Disney Princesses are the protagonists and heroines of their stories, or at least that's the way Disney markets them. Not to mention 70-80% of what airs on Disney Channel is clearly marketed to girls.

"Protagonists" I'll grant you, but I wouldn't call some of them heroines. Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, and other princesses with little to no agency in their own stories are hardly what many would call heroic. On the other hand, you have Mulan, Pocahontas, Merida, and others who DO take control of their own lives, so I guess there's a balance.

 

[Mindfire]

"Protagonists" I'll grant you, but I wouldn't call some of them heroines. Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, and other princesses with little to no agency in their own stories are hardly what many would call heroic. On the other hand, you have Mulan, Pocahontas, Merida, and others who DO take control of their own lives, so I guess there's a balance.

There has been a shift in the presentation of Disney princesses over time. (You left out Princess Tiana!) But even though earlier Disney princesses have less agency, they're still marketed as role models and lifted up as icons of "specialness", similar to the way characters from other franchises like Batman and GI Joe are aimed at boys. Disney targets girls intentionally. In fact, I'd say they're the biggest entity that does so.

 

[Ireth]

(You left out Princess Tiana!)

I did say "others", which includes her and any I didn't think of at that moment, like Ariel. ^^

 

[Steerpike]

There's no inherent reason boys and girls will necessarily respond better to a protagonist of their own sex. Human beings, even children, can identify with the struggles of other similarly-situated humans (in this case, other kids). I feel most of the preconceptions that go into boys not liking reading about girls are taught. From what I understand from children's book agents, girls are far more likely to be willing to read about boys than vice versa, which also fits in perfectly that the response is a product of socialization in a patriarchal society.

 

[Devor]

Disney targets girls intentionally. In fact, I'd say they're the biggest entity that does so.

Okay, here's a quick lesson in identifying a target audience.

Women are not all the same. Like everyone else, they tend to fall into groups which you can identify. Some women fall in the middle of one of those groups, and are on the outskirts, or in between. We'll call the groups A, B, C, and D for Disney.

Most of the time, a product needs to appeal to multiple groups at the same time in order to find a strong market. If you appeal to group A, and only group A, you have to do a tougher job of saturating the niche. Instead of shooting for 10% of all women, you need to hit 40% of group A to get the same volume. As a result, products which only market to group A, B, C, or D get lower investments. It's just too tough to expect them to succeed as much.

Enter Disney. Disney targets group D of women heavily, and effectively. So much so, in fact, that it breaks the boundaries of group D and becomes, for lack of a better word, "pop." Most of the time, groups "A, B, C, and D" aren't defined by a label but by an axis of traits, and a percentage to which each person lines up with each group. If group "D" is the bottom right quadrant, then you have to be at the top left to be diametrically opposed to the group. Most women are, let's say, at least 10% group D, even if they're 90% group A. By gaining 90% saturation in group D, Disney is able to reach a significant percentage of all four hypothetical groups of women, based on most women's 10+% affiliation with group D.

But it would be incomplete to simply say that "Disney targets women" and leave it at that. There are three groups of women, in this example, who enjoy Disney movies without feeling "targeted."

 

[Kit]

I feel most of the preconceptions that go into boys not liking reading about girls are taught. From what I understand from children's book agents, girls are far more likely to be willing to read about boys than vice versa, which also fits in perfectly that the response is a product of socialization in a patriarchal society.

That's what I took from the "girls will watch TV shows with male characters but boys won't watch shows with female characters" study. I think it's really sad and scary that young boys are getting indoctrinated into the whole "boys are better than girls" mindset before they can even articulate any reasoning for it (aside from the aforementioned "they're girls").

 

[saellys]

Disney Princesses are the protagonists and heroines of their stories, or at least that's the way Disney markets them. Not to mention 70-80% of what airs on Disney Channel is clearly marketed to girls.

There has been a shift in the presentation of Disney princesses over time. (You left out Princess Tiana!) But even though earlier Disney princesses have less agency, they're still marketed as role models and lifted up as icons of "specialness", similar to the way characters from other franchises like Batman and GI Joe are aimed at boys. Disney targets girls intentionally. In fact, I'd say they're the biggest entity that does so.

"Markets" and "targets" are definitely the right words for this situation. Disney has very carefully chosen a model of femininity that requires absolutely no effort to sell, and can be reproduced time and again with minimal variation.

All the Disney princesses apart from the three Ireth mentioned wind up happily married with every material possession they could possibly want by the end of their titular stories, after being completely passive for the ninety minutes leading up to the denouement. They are only heroines by the most indulgent of standards, and certainly not in the way Batman and the characters of GI Joe are heroes.

And while Disney Channel shows are undeniably marketed to a predominantly female audience, the models of femaleness they present are almost exclusively harmful. I have viewed more Hannah Montana and The Suite Life of Zack & Cody than any human being should ever have to, and witnessed portrayals that ranged from baseless and unresolved girlhate and internalized misogyny, tacitly supported by the narrative, to a fifteen-year-old girl proudly declaring how "hot" she was. Former Disney start Demi Lovato made some amazing posts on Twitter in response to a joke about eating disorders in another Disney Channel show. When someone who made untold riches in your teen star factory turns around and tells you how screwed up your standards are, you're probably doing something wrong.

Disney is among the most active and focused media entities targeting a female audience, and the overwhelming majority of what they present is detrimental to that audience's self-esteem, ambition, and ability to relate to other girls in constructive ways. Read Cinderella Ate My Daughter or watch Miss Representation for more on that.

Oh, and if you downplay this because you think everyone can automatically tell how meretricious and vapid these portrayals are, allow me to point out that most of the members of this forum are presumably voracious readers, and probably weren't raised by television. Most generations younger than us, or less interested in books than us, were raised by television (correlation here, not causation). These shows are marketed to young children, and young children internalize everything they encounter, and copy a large percentage of it. (Once, Zack/Cody put a paper bag over his twin's head, and my six-year-old nannying charge copied the action on herself with a plastic bag. I grew twenty grey hairs that day.) What they see gets incorporated in how they behave, how they think, and how they view themselves.

 

[Addison]

We just cleaned up after dinner and he is laying on the sofa with the book in hand. I said there's cookies and he didn't move. He's loving the book! Maybe I should make bets like this more often.

As for the Disney Princess remark, I have only seen....four princesses who were strong heroines.
Merida-Brave (Tomboy, archer, stubborn, faced off with a friggin bear and her father)
Rapunzel-Tangled (She's mean with a frying pan and can out-swing Tarzan with her hair)
Jasmine-Aladdin (Has a pet tiger, runs away from home, gets in the guard's face, and (In King of Thieves) Decks some guys)
Esmerelda -Hunchback of Notre Dame (Defies the villain, insults him, takes out the guards without breaking a sweat, takes down Phoebos)

My favorite princess is Belle. One because she likes to read as much as I do, second because of the castle and all the talking objects.

 

[Mindfire]

We just cleaned up after dinner and he is laying on the sofa with the book in hand. I said there's cookies and he didn't move. He's loving the book! Maybe I should make bets like this more often.

As for the Disney Princess remark, I have only seen....four princesses who were strong heroines.
Merida-Brave (Tomboy, archer, stubborn, faced off with a friggin bear and her father)
Rapunzel-Tangled (She's mean with a frying pan and can out-swing Tarzan with her hair)
Jasmine-Aladdin (Has a pet tiger, runs away from home, gets in the guard's face, and (In King of Thieves) Decks some guys)
Esmerelda -Hunchback of Notre Dame (Defies the villain, insults him, takes out the guards without breaking a sweat, takes down Phoebos)

My favorite princess is Belle. One because she likes to read as much as I do, second because of the castle and all the talking objects.

Why are Mulan, Tiana, and Pocahontas (who saves the day in her film more or less) not on this list?

 

[Mindfire]

That's what I took from the "girls will watch TV shows with male characters but boys won't watch shows with female characters" study. I think it's really sad and scary that young boys are getting indoctrinated into the whole "boys are better than girls" mindset before they can even articulate any reasoning for it (aside from the aforementioned "they're girls").

To be fair, it goes both ways. Back in my day, both sexes were resolutely convinced that they were superior to the other. Has that changed?

 

[Zero Angel]

In my opinion any MMORPG with any number of sliders, especially FIVE, relating to breasts, is sick and clearly made by either men with no life and lots of dreams and/or women with low self esteem.

I'm not opposed to sliders for that so long as there are sliders for EVERY other body part, and it would probably be better if you have to go through a menu or two in order to get the advanced customization options.

But back to the thread topic (as there was one about fifty pages ago about Women in Fantasy) a female character, especially the hero, follows the same arcs as a male hero. Farmer turned valiant hero, rags to riches and all of those. As a woman myself, yet an avid reader, I'm pulled toward both but it's the story itself that draws me. Yet even my kid siblings have differences. My sister loves reading books about girls her age throwing sleep overs and bake sales, my brother is loving the Janitors series and something about a kid and a school virus. (Not a Janitors book) But he will not pick up a book with a strong female hero like Fablehaven or Winterling or Enchanted Forest Chronicles. My sister is eating the Chronicles and a Frog Princess series and is devouring Alosha.

When I asked my brother why he wasn't reading those books he said the hero was a girl and, and I quote, "Girls can't be as good as heroes as boys can." As a girl, reader, writer, and big sister I laid down the law. I asked him to make a list of what makes boys better heroes than girls and girls worse heroes than boys. If my scanner was working I'd upload is list it is so little-boy-cute-and-ridiculous.

Needless to say I turned each of his items on his "Girls worse" list around. So at the end when I asked why girls aren't as good heroes all he could come up with was "They're girls." So I made a bet for him to read the Enchanted Forest Chronicles, at least the first one. And if he either honestly didn't like it or didn't read the second, then I would make him a whole pan of special brownies. If he did like it and/or read the next, I got the whole weekend free of little kid interruptions and I didn't have to make his bed or feed his dog.

Needless to say I'm going to have a very pleasant weekend.

Book 2 and 4 of EFC strongly feature male heroes though. Pretty nice representation, although 4 was a let-down after the first three.

That's what I took from the "girls will watch TV shows with male characters but boys won't watch shows with female characters" study. I think it's really sad and scary that young boys are getting indoctrinated into the whole "boys are better than girls" mindset before they can even articulate any reasoning for it (aside from the aforementioned "they're girls").

There's another reason or two why boys probably don't want to read stories about, and it's also why I will be at least leery of stories with main female characters.

1) "Women's Literature" is very offsetting and quite hard to stomach. In fact, if something is classified as "women's lit" before it's classified as something else (say, fantasy), then it will have to really come strongly onto my radar in order to warrant a read.

2) Kind of an extension of (1) I suppose, but more upsetting (to me) is that stories concerning girls are frequently concerning stereotypical girls.

"Markets" and "targets" are definitely the right words for this situation. Disney has very carefully chosen a model of femininity that requires absolutely no effort to sell, and can be reproduced time and again with minimal variation.

All the Disney princesses apart from the three Ireth mentioned wind up happily married with every material possession they could possibly want by the end of their titular stories, after being completely passive for the ninety minutes leading up to the denouement. They are only heroines by the most indulgent of standards, and certainly not in the way Batman and the characters of GI Joe are heroes.

That brings up another interesting point though. Girl characters very frequently get their happily ever after ending, while characters like Batman may succeed in winning the day, but still aren't happy. Stoicism in guy characters isn't just something that is lauded, it's preferred frequently.

Oh, and if you downplay this because you think everyone can automatically tell how meretricious and vapid these portrayals are, allow me to point out that most of the members of this forum are presumably voracious readers, and probably weren't raised by television.

I'm always very interested in what motivates your counter-arguments before someone argues them because this is not a point that I can see anyone arguing. Maybe if it was adult television, but it's for kids. Kids are bright and all, but that doesn't mean we need to throw all of that crap at them.

Most generations younger than us, or less interested in books than us, were raised by television

I'm not sure how far back you have to go to get a generation that wasn't raised on television, but just for the record, I was raised by television.

 

[Mindfire]

I'm not sure how far back you have to go to get a generation that wasn't raised on television, but just for the record, I was raised by television.

I wasn't! Were you a 70s or 80s kid by any chance? They say Gen-Xers tended to have less attentive parents.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Why are Mulan, Tiana, and Pocahontas (who saves the day in her film more or less) not on this list?

It's hard to count Pocahontas because while she is spirited, they changed her so much for the story she kind of becomes a native American sex kitten.

And I just don't know Tiana.

For the record, Fa Mulan has always been my personal favorite of all time because she is an actual historical figure. The woman kicked such serious butt that a legion of legends blossomed around her. The actual stories about her are even more fantastic than the movie.

 

[Kit]

To be fair, it goes both ways. Back in my day, both sexes were resolutely convinced that they were superior to the other. Has that changed?

Point taken. Probably not. I do think the boys are worse about it, though (I blame the messages they are getting, not the boys themselves).

 

[Devor]

All the Disney princesses apart from the three Ireth mentioned wind up happily married with every material possession they could possibly want by the end of their titular stories, after being completely passive for the ninety minutes leading up to the denouement. They are only heroines by the most indulgent of standards, and certainly not in the way Batman and the characters of GI Joe are heroes.

To be fair, most of them do have agency, and are decent characters, even if they aren't heroines. I would say the problem is the way Disney markets them collectively to young girls, in ways that are often detached from their actual stories. It's like they stereotype themselves when they promote "The Disney Princesses" and show off a row of skinny rich women. I mostly love the movies themselves, but their merchandising towards young girls is total crap.

I've also taken issue with Hannah Montana and some of the others girl-targeting shows on Disney, but they also air things like Phineas and Ferb or Marvel's Avengers, so I don't otherwise have a good impression of whether that's "Disney" or just those couple of shows. I mean, Disney is pretty big nowadays - ABC, ESPN, Pixar, Marvel, Pirates of the Carribean.... and the guy from Pixar has been responsible for green lighting all Disney movies since Disney bought them. So I think the situation at Disney is improving, and the problem getting more narrow, to say the least.

 

[Mindfire]

It's hard to count Pocahontas because while she is spirited, they changed her so much for the story she kind of becomes a native American sex kitten.

Well of course they changed it. This is Disney we're talking about. And I really don't think she's "sexy", especially not when you compare her design to, say, Jasmine's or Esmerelda's.

Wait, since when is Esmerelda a princess?

 

[saellys]

1) "Women's Literature" is very offsetting and quite hard to stomach. In fact, if something is classified as "women's lit" before it's classified as something else (say, fantasy), then it will have to really come strongly onto my radar in order to warrant a read.

Just so you're aware, "women's literature" is frequently classified that way for no other reason than that it was written by a woman. You're missing out on a lot.

That brings up another interesting point though. Girl characters very frequently get their happily ever after ending, while characters like Batman may succeed in winning the day, but still aren't happy. Stoicism in guy characters isn't just something that is lauded, it's preferred frequently.

I agree wholeheartedly with that observation. Seems like in that respect, at least, media targeted at boys does a better job of preparing the audience for life's unending tedium and disappointment.

I'm always very interested in what motivates your counter-arguments before someone argues them because this is not a point that I can see anyone arguing. Maybe if it was adult television, but it's for kids. Kids are bright and all, but that doesn't mean we need to throw all of that crap at them.

I'm not sure how far back you have to go to get a generation that wasn't raised on television, but just for the record, I was raised by television.

This particular counter-argument comes from real life. My husband doesn't think television's impact is that great, and is constantly confused when I express frustration over what gets perpetuated in media. He was a latchkey kid, but he grew up reading instead of watching TV, so making it a generational distinction was a faux pas on my part.

 

[Mindfire]

Point taken. Probably not. I do think the boys are worse about it, though.

Sorry, you're going to have a hard time selling me that one.

 

[saellys]

To be fair, most of them do have agency, and are decent characters, even if they aren't heroines.

I'm curious: can you name three differences between Snow White, Aurora, and Cinderella other than their physical appearance and what happens to them in their movies?

I would say the problem is the way Disney markets them collectively to young girls, in ways that are often detached from their actual stories. It's like they stereotype themselves when they promote "The Disney Princesses" and show off a row of skinny rich women. I mostly love the movies themselves, but their merchandising towards young girls is total crap.

No argument here. The whole angle of making girls want to "be" a princess squicks me out. What does it even mean?

I've also taken issue with Hannah Montana and some of the others girl-targeting shows on Disney, but they also air things like Phineas and Ferb or Marvel's Avengers, so I don't otherwise have a good impression of whether that's "Disney" or just those couple of shows. I mean, Disney is pretty big nowadays - ABC, ESPN, Pixar, Marvel, Pirates of the Carribean.... and the guy from Pixar has been responsible for green lighting all Disney movies since Disney bought them. So I think the situation at Disney is improving, and the problem getting more narrow, to say the least.

Mindfire and I were talking about Disney shows that are clearly marketed primarily to girls; Phineas and Ferb (which is great) is debatable, while Avengers is pretty clearly not. As for things improving, well, Brenda Chapman has some stories to tell about that.

 

[Mindfire]

I'm curious: can you name three differences between Snow White, Aurora, and Cinderella other than their physical appearance and what happens to them in their movies?

Snow White and Aurora are largely the same, except Snow has by far the most annoying voice in all of Disney animated film history. Cinderella on the other hand is a bit different. I'd consider her the first Disney princess to have a personality of some kind. She reminds me of a more mature Sansa Stark in some ways, particularly the longsuffering spirit she shows when dealing with her step-relatives. And if you pay attention, there's a hint of a sarcastic streak there too, carefully concealed by a mask of politeness.

Now here's a real challenge. Can you tell the Disney Princes from these movies apart? Until a short while ago, I didn't even know they had names! (Except Philip. And I only remember his name because he has an awesome fight scene with a dragon.)