saellys
Inkling
This thread got way off-topic and Reaver closed it down accordingly, but the discussion was really interesting (and far more civil than most I've encountered on the Internet). So here's a thread to discuss the broader topic of representation of women in media, with an emphasis on the fantasy genre since that is, after all, why we're here. Reaver gave me the go-ahead for a new thread, with the caveat that the mods will be watching closely, so let's maintain the level of respectful intellectual discourse we had in the previous thread, shall we?
For newcomers to the discussion, here's a list of salient points and research links so you don't have to wade through eleven pages.
The thread began with a link to this blog post by an armorer, discussing the practicality of armor that covers "lady bits". Contributors pointed out that lots of women would have to wrap or otherwise compress their breasts to fit beneath flat armor, or even to fight at all with full range of motion.
Women Fighters In Reasonable Armor and OtherWorld Miniatures' female concept art got cited as positive examples of characters who present as female and wear appropriate protection for the types of combat they do. Real-life, modern day professional jousters Virginia Hankins and Jessica Post, both of whom wear full plate, were also referenced, along with the titular characters' armor in the recent reimagined films Alice In Wonderland and Snow White and the Huntsman.
Anders Amting made this post comparing female armor in Skyrim with a user-created mod. Thus began the discussion of fantasy's "target audience" wanting particular things from female characters in their media. Some contributors pointed out that since it's fantasy, it really didn't matter and the creators could justify doing whatever they wanted with character design. Others responded that that was all well and good, but the overwhelming majority of female characters in a fantasy setting that was illustrated in some way were depicted wearing impractical or nonexistent armor.
We talked a lot about the male gaze and the double standard of sexualizing female characters, but not male. (If you were about to post that men are sexualized too, they're not.) The target audience of the fantasy genre and media like comic books and video games was generally agreed to be male, but I posited that wouldn't be the case if more women saw themselves represented realistically in these media.
Here's a brief summing up of why this is important in two posts from late in the thread:
Now, let the discussion continue!
For newcomers to the discussion, here's a list of salient points and research links so you don't have to wade through eleven pages.
The thread began with a link to this blog post by an armorer, discussing the practicality of armor that covers "lady bits". Contributors pointed out that lots of women would have to wrap or otherwise compress their breasts to fit beneath flat armor, or even to fight at all with full range of motion.
Women Fighters In Reasonable Armor and OtherWorld Miniatures' female concept art got cited as positive examples of characters who present as female and wear appropriate protection for the types of combat they do. Real-life, modern day professional jousters Virginia Hankins and Jessica Post, both of whom wear full plate, were also referenced, along with the titular characters' armor in the recent reimagined films Alice In Wonderland and Snow White and the Huntsman.
Anders Amting made this post comparing female armor in Skyrim with a user-created mod. Thus began the discussion of fantasy's "target audience" wanting particular things from female characters in their media. Some contributors pointed out that since it's fantasy, it really didn't matter and the creators could justify doing whatever they wanted with character design. Others responded that that was all well and good, but the overwhelming majority of female characters in a fantasy setting that was illustrated in some way were depicted wearing impractical or nonexistent armor.
We talked a lot about the male gaze and the double standard of sexualizing female characters, but not male. (If you were about to post that men are sexualized too, they're not.) The target audience of the fantasy genre and media like comic books and video games was generally agreed to be male, but I posited that wouldn't be the case if more women saw themselves represented realistically in these media.
Here's a brief summing up of why this is important in two posts from late in the thread:
FatCat said:Female armor in fantasy is revealing and unpractical!? Oh my, what a revelation! When has anything in fantasy been practical, isn't that the point!? A good-looking female body is better looking in an outfit that highlights sexual features, the same with men. This thread is a bit confusing to be honest, the correlation between real-world gender issues and fantasy literature is a bit strange, in my opinion. Why not let the sparsely-clad heroin be an object of desire, or the muscled barbarian (with rugged good looks of course) be just that, fantasy. I find it odd that anyone would really consider these images offensive, when it is pure fantasy that compels such a thing in the first place.
Saellys said:Fantasy as a genre is, like all other forms of media we consume, a reflection of attitudes real people have in the real world. Oversexualizing the female body in any context is a symptom of problematic attitudes toward women in general. When it happens in the fantasy genre, it's usually at the expense of character development, and poor character developments makes for a poor reader experience that isn't balanced out by a nice pair of boobies in a mailkini.
I consider the images problematic mainly because it perpetuates the idea that I am not welcome as either a reader or creator because fantasy/comic books/video games/etc. is for men only, and that my entire gender exists in these stories only to be sexualized and ogled.
Now, let the discussion continue!