The Trouble With Fridge Logic

[Ireth]

Ah, but character driven stories have plots too.

I said as much in my previous post -- "there has to be attention paid to the plot as well."

This isn't an excuse to have a sink drama, you don't have one character emoting in one room. There is a story for them to work in, as well as a story inside their head. People use it to flag lazier writing (not accusing anyone here of this, but I have heard our own members be lazy in this aspect) because they are afraid of story structure, a real plot, and don't understand instead of being separate entities, they work hand in hand together.

Exactly.

Sometimes the easiest way to get rid of an obstacle is to get rid of everything and look at it from a different point of view. Step away from the story and do something else. Write another piece, give it some time.

I still say blow this up, salvage what you can, and reforge a new story. Many writers do it. Heck, I've done it often as well. Sometimes what you know today doesn't compare to what you will know in six months when the fridge logic goes away.

Also, investigate some story structure sites and books. Perhaps they can shed some light as well.

*nod* I'll do my best. Thanks for the feedback and advice. ^^

 

[Graylorne]

To have people behave against their nature/etc... You wouldn't want to use the loaded slave-collar idea? A geis in their heads that does funny things to them if they don't obey, or something?

 

[Ireth]

To have people behave against their nature/etc... You wouldn't want to use the loaded slave-collar idea? A geis in their heads that does funny things to them if they don't obey, or something?

That might work. I don't intend for the Hawks to actually succeed in handing the princess over to her father, but it's still going to go badly for them even if they don't have a geas hanging over their heads. That's the trouble with bittersweet endings, finding a balance between the good and the bad. I don't want it to be a total downer (which it would be if a geas forced them to endure some form of punishment if they failed, as opposed to immense guilt if they were forced to succeed), but I don't want it to be too happy either.

 

[Graylorne]

Geis / geas - is your spelling different, or mine plain wrong?

Is such a thing surmountable? You offer up an arm and break the spell? Losing your working arm instead of lifelong guilt is a choice. Not an easy one; hacking off your own limb isn't funny.

 

[Ireth]

Geis / geas - is your spelling different, or mine plain wrong?

Is such a thing surmountable? You offer up an arm and break the spell? Losing your working arm instead of lifelong guilt is a choice. Not an easy one; hacking off your own limb isn't funny.

They're two different spellings; I believe both are correct. Might be a language difference, Irish vs. Scottish.

... *squirms* I'd rather not leave my major characters maimed if there's an alternative solution. It would seem like an opportunity for character development which would be expanded on in a sequel, but there isn't going to be a sequel to this book. Besides, I don't know if the Fae would have enough healers on hand to deal with that before people bled to death.

 

[Graylorne]

My words are mostly Irish, so then I'm safe.

Yes, well, a fey with only one eye could be very romantic.
It could also be a loss of some power or ability. Anyhow, I'd say losing an eye or a hand is bittersweet compared to a fate-worse-than-death.

Healers are not a problem, you only need a bucket of hot tar and a fire. Anyone could do it. But I guess thats No?

 

[Ireth]

My words are mostly Irish, so then I'm safe.

Yes, well, a fey with only one eye could be very romantic.
It could also be a loss of some power or ability. Anyhow, I'd say losing an eye or a hand is bittersweet compared to a fate-worse-than-death.

For the Fae, perhaps, but not for the humans. Vincent in particular, being a pianist -- a prosthetic hand would take ages to get used to, and would likely be very frustrating to re-learn how to play the piano. Again, it's character development that he would not get, since this is the second book of a duology.

Let's put this into the proper perspective. Assuming no geas for the moment...

If the Hawks succeed in bringing Meabh to her father:

- Meabh suffers a fate worse than death
- the Hawks are returned to their proper time and place in the mortal world, but left with the immense guilt of letting one of their only friends in Faerie suffer for something that wasn't even entirely her fault.
- Loegaire's fate has yet to be decided.

And if they fail:

- depending on Meabh's own actions, she either dies or is forced into exile -- death being the more likely
- Loegaire suffers a fate worse than death in Meabh's place
- the Hawks are imprisoned in Faerie for a matter of years, with no guarantee of returning to their own time and place in the human world -- essentially giving up everything they know and love except each other

That's assuming nobody intervenes for the Hawks' sake, which may happen in the event of a compromise between the two options to try and find the best possible solution in the circumstances. Here's what I currently have in mind for a compromise (warning, spoilers):

Spoiler: the end of the book

- Meabh is caught, but the Hawks refuse to hand her over to the kings
- Someone (not sure who) brings up the idea of a fight to the death between Loegaire and Meabh, with the winner being subject to the fate worse than death
- they fight, and since neither wants to be the one to let the other suffer, nor suffer themselves, they mercy-kill each other (or, perhaps, simply fake it -- but I'm still figuring out how that would work, since a working heartbeat would be a giveaway, and sedatives are dangerous)
- King #1 (Madoc) decides that the Hawks have failed, and orders that they be imprisoned
- King #2 (Finvarra) intervenes, saying Madoc has no authority anymore, and commands him to leave. He then has the Hawks brought back to their own home, though not necessarily at the exact time they left (nothing unreasonable though, probably just a matter of days or weeks off)

 

[Graylorne]

I'd think this perfectly acceptable. If the duel deaths are real and properly dramatic. To fake it, I'd feel as cheating.

 

[Ireth]

I'd think this perfectly acceptable. If the duel deaths are real and properly dramatic. To fake it, I'd feel as cheating.

Yeah, I think so too. I'm just not sure who would bring up such an idea. Probably Madoc, though one would think he'd anticipate that, being lovers, neither Loegaire nor Meabh would want to let the other one suffer, so a double mercy-kill would be inevitable.

 

[Graylorne]

I don't know them well enough, but couldn't this King be deep inside completely fed up with the whole affaire?

 

[Ireth]

I don't know them well enough, but couldn't this King be deep inside completely fed up with the whole affaire?

Oh, definitely, but there are many ways he could express it. Spoilers ahoy:

Spoiler: Winter's Queen

Ariel's repeated attempts to escape Prince Fiachra and their upcoming wedding culminate in her seriously wounding him so that he is unfit to inherit the throne, King Madoc seeks to have Ariel beheaded simply because it's "easier" than letting her go home. When Ariel's father and uncle show up with Meabh and halt the beheading, some Fae are killed in the ensuing conflict.

Only after Fiachra dies at his sister's hands (in self-defense, mind you; he attacked her first) does Madoc say "screw this" and order the Hawks to all go home. Meabh takes them home herself, and upon her return to Faerie, is sentenced with the aforesaid fate worse than death, for what her father sees as fratricide. The sequel begins within days of her imprisonment, pending the arrival of the Fae who can perform the proper rites. Her actual sentencing is not shown in either book, but it is explained by Loegaire when he meets the Hawks.

When the Hawks come before Madoc again in this book, his reaction is basically "Ugh, you three again. Didn't I just get rid of you?" But he acknowledges that he can't just send them home again this time; they've committed a crime in his eyes and they must be punished for it. He lets Ariel off easy in the prelude mainly because her father and uncle were right there, prepared to kill as many Fae as they thought necessary if he tried to do anything (else) to Ariel rather than letting her go.

 

[Graylorne]

So actually there wouldn't be a problem for him to accept a fight to the death between Loegaire and Meabh and just skipping over the fact they'd possibly kill each other? Just to be rid of the whole thing? Then the other King could send the humans home.

 

[Ireth]

So actually there wouldn't be a problem for him to accept a fight to the death between Loegaire and Meabh and just skipping over the fact they'd possibly kill each other? Just to be rid of the whole thing? Then the other King could send the humans home.

Yeah, pretty much. Is that too simplistic? I feel kinda like it leaves the Hawks on the sidelines a bit. I imagine they'd try to dissuade the Fae from going that route, but ultimately fail. They'd likely be barred from actively intervening to stop the fight. The decision to not hand Meabh over to her father is their choice as much as Loegaire's, but in the end it's just between the two fugitives to decide how everything will go.

 

[Graylorne]

I don't think it's too simplistic. You can show their frustration, their anguish and, if the Fae die beautifully, their resignation. Could be a very nice ending.

 

[Ireth]

I don't think it's too simplistic. You can show their frustration, their anguish and, if the Fae die beautifully, their resignation. Could be a very nice ending.

Indeed. I just hope I'll be able to pull it off.

 

[Graylorne]

I know, that's always the final doubt. But you know your characters well, you know how they'll react, so in the end you'll succeed.

 

[Ireth]

I know, that's always the final doubt. But you know your characters well, you know how they'll react, so in the end you'll succeed.

Mmhmm. I think the geas might still work too, with possibly a few changes by Madoc toward the ending. Then again, with a geas that can only be lifted by the one who casts it, there really isn't much room for the heroes to hope that they could somehow save everyone. Especially if breaking the geas would have its own set of consequences -- death, for example. I don't want my story to be completely without hope.

 

[Graylorne]

Look at it this way:

Spoiler: Winter's Queen

Vincent and Loegaire operate under this geas.
They catch Meabh and they all appear before the kings.
At that moment, the geas lifts automatically, as it’s been fulfilled.
Loegaire attacks Meabh (they planned this) and they fight.
Madoc wants to interfere, but Finvarra stops him. Both contestants die.
Madoc is furious and wants to imprison the Hawks.
Finvarra sends him away and has the humans returned home.

Meabh knows that death is preferable to what awaits her.
Loegaire realizes he hasn't much left either. Won't other fae see him as the one who betrayed Meabh? He is filled with anguish at what he is forced to do and sees this as the only honorable way out. I don't know if this is in character, ofc.

 

[Ireth]

Look at it this way:

Spoiler: Winter's Queen

Vincent and Loegaire operate under this geas.
They catch Meabh and they all appear before the kings.
At that moment, the geas lifts automatically, as it’s been fulfilled.
Loegaire attacks Meabh (they planned this) and they fight.
Madoc wants to interfere, but Finvarra stops him. Both contestants die.
Madoc is furious and wants to imprison the Hawks.
Finvarra sends him away and has the humans returned home.

Maybe. I'm not sure how they'll be able to plan it, since a) since being separated from Loegaire, Meabh is keeping her true identity a secret from everyone, including Loegaire, since she can't risk him accidentally exposing her; and b) the Kings are tracking their every move via scrying (and they tell the heroes this before they set out), as well as following them through the forest, which is how they're able to get to the heroes at the exact moment their deadline is up rather than letting the Hawks come to them (since they don't know Meabh was with them all along until that moment). Loegaire finds out about the following when he scries on the Kings to see how things are going (possibly to check up on any Hawk being held as leverage, if I go that route).

But again, this doesn't solve the problem I stated in my previous post -- that of a total lack of hope on the part of the heroes, which is something I don't want.

Meabh knows that death is preferable to what awaits her.

Yup.

Loegaire realizes he hasn't much left either. Won't other fae see him as the one who betrayed Meabh?

I doubt it. If even King Madoc wants her worse than dead, the Courts probably see her as nothing as well. Loegaire would be defying Madoc, not Meabh.

He is filled with anguish at what he is forced to do and sees this as the only honorable way out. I don't know if this is in character, ofc.

He'd much prefer a life of freedom for them both, which would happen if he and Meabh swore fealty to King Finvarra as they meant to in the first place. I just need to find a way to prevent them from getting that opportunity... unless I change my mind and decide to give them a happy ending after all.

 

[Graylorne]

The solutions are getting rather thin...

1. Hope. There is always hope. Otherways they'd just lay down and die. The idea of reaching Finvarra and swearing to him could give hope, perhaps?

2. They could try to swear fealty to Finvarra and have him refuse it, let him order their duel to end the whole thing.