The Bechdel Test

[Nihal]

It is interesting to me how early in life some of the things we've discussed here form in the human mind. A children's book editor once told me to change the sex of my main character from female to male, the reasoning being that little girls will read stories about boys, but little boys will not read stories about girls. I didn't make the change, but after she said that I did some looking around and found the same advice in many places.

Having been a little boy once myself, I can say there is some truth to at least half of that statement.

Yes and no. Once upon a time I was a little girl. While I tolerated stories with male protagonists, it was more because I had no choice. The men got to do all the cool things in these stories and the female, when they even appeared, usually were dull or sounded fake.

It happened in games also. One of the games that "redeemed" this industry to me was Kyrandia II: The Hand of Fate, because I got to play a female. When I first played it I had a strong feeling of "At last!".

Because I tolerated those stories, it doesn't mean I was happy about it. I must admit I never got over it, even if the times are changing now.

I won't force you in a personal crusade to portray cool kickass females and ethnic diversity. However, I am selfish. I want to show the women I never got to see in my childhood, the MCs who do not have blond, straight hair and blue eyes. I don't care if some average male reader don't identify himself with the protagonist, he got a plenty of other stories - and they're good! - to read.

The other thing I want to do is to draw characters who wears more than one set of clothes (c'mon, their eternal clothes always bothered me!).

 

[Jabrosky]

I won't force you in a personal crusade to portray cool kickass females and ethnic diversity. However, I am selfish. I want to show the women I never got to see in my childhood, the MCs who do not have blond, straight hair and blue eyes. I don't care if some average male reader don't identify himself with the protagonist, he got a plenty of other stories - and they're good! - to read.

The fact that you're apparently writing the characters you want to see yourself rather than pressuring other people to write them gives me a lot of respect for you. I love your do-it-itself attitude, an attitude I share myself when it comes to things like this.

 

[Ankari]

See, when you say "you have a responsibility to these people", the response is, "Leave me alone, I don't want to be drafted." But when you say, "you can produce better writing than this" or "your characterization is lacking, but here's a way to improve it", you're more likely to get engagement.

I agree with Mindfire completely on this point.

I don't. Not fully, anyway. What does it mean we except the bolded line when it refers to the description of the character? My writing is awesome, the story is outstanding, but because it involves a white (which I'm not) male, the writing is subpar? Actually, the way that writing is done now, you really don't pick up a lot of the physical characteristics of your MC's. The tight PoV and the minimalist approach guarantees this.

These conditions only exist because these manufactured demons haunt your mind. Excerise them, then you can enjoy the story for what it is.

 

[saellys]

There's a slight difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying. You are (from an outsider perspective) foisting upon them a responsibility to other people that they don't really want the pressure of bearing, even if it's something they were going to do anyway. When you put it that way, it comes off as a burdensome intrusion, a demand that they "take up the standard" and all the other objections you've gotten. By contrast, my way of phrasing it makes it not a responsibility to others that the writer has to bear, but merely another facet of the responsibility to themselves and their creations which they've already accepted and should fulfill to the best of their ability since they consider themselves writers.

See, when you say "you have a responsibility to these people", the response is, "Leave me alone, I don't want to be drafted." But when you say, "you can produce better writing than this" or "your characterization is lacking, but here's a way to improve it", you're more likely to get engagement.

The problem with that extremely diplomatic and mitigated example is that it cannot be extended beyond one character in one story, and it gives no indication that a problem of characterization might be connected to a much larger trend. There is no opportunity for consciousness that continues beyond the story that person is working on at that moment, and might shape the way they portray a particular kind of person for the better later on. It leaves room to keep writing the same problematic things indefinitely, rather than encouraging awareness of a given issue that each writer, consciously or un-, may contribute to solving or perpetuating.

I have given exactly the kind of critique you recommend right here on this forum, but I have connected it to larger issues when I did, and both parties (Jabrosky, on "A Clash of Queens," and Xaysai, on "The Mancer Chronicles") were every bit as receptive as I could have hoped. In each case, I pinpointed some characterization issues--Hatshepsut and Boudicca both had better things to do than fight over a man and body-shame each other; Xaysai's MC has serious guilt issues based around the rape and murder of his wife and daughter, which falls under the "dead little sister" and "women in refrigerators" trope, and at that point in the story he had not provided anything else in the protagonist's back story that drove him. I'm naming names here not to shame people for what they wrote, but to highlight exemplary reactions when I drew their attention to these problems.

In Jabrosky's case I offered a great big hypothetical post about how he could still keep his awesome time-bending deathmatch without the problematic elements, while I did not offer any alternatives to Xaysai, because ultimately he's the only one who can know what drives his MC--I just wanted him to be aware of the trope. Jabrosky explained that "Clash" was something he wrote for fun and was not intended as anything approaching serious historical fantasy, but he might change it at a later date. Xaysai said he hadn't realized it was a trope, and would work on it.

I came away from both exchanges totally satisfied (and I hope Jabrosky and Xaysai did, too), because neither of them dismissed my views out of hand. They even both clicked Thanks on my posts--hooray for validation! I had, at some level, got them thinking about what they had presented and whether they would do anything different in the future.

Now, T. Allen has said he sees a huge divide between taking such critique from a beta reader and taking it from someone in his audience after his story is finished, and I respect that to the extent that I, as a writer, would not want to go back and change something I'd already released for public consumption either, even if a reader did find something incredibly problematic and I recognized this. It's the future that's important here, and awareness of greater issues that we all play into whether we mean to or not. At any stage--first draft, beta reading, or post-publication--it is vitally important to not dismiss the things our audience points out, and to give them enough respect to actually think about it. That's what can make us better writers in the future. Not to mention keep our readers our readers, and not make them jump ship to a better Sherlock Holmes adapta--I mean, uh, fantasy novel.

I understood why you made the assumptions in the 1st read through. It would be far fetched at this point, considering what we know of your views, to claim any form of sexist bigotry. Don't concern yourself with that further.

Thanks for your understanding.

It illustrates the problem well. Although I do find it interesting that 2 of the 5 primary opposing arguments in this thread came from PoC writers.

I do too. Obviously Mindfire and Ankari tend to feel comfortable in this genre, and more power to them, if you'll pardon a very watered-down sentiment. I really don't believe that invalidates any of the issues I've brought up in this thread, though.

My feeling on any type of social change is that it takes time. Unfortunately, it is unrealistic to expect action from those unaffected by the problem.

Social attitudes changing seems to require champions from within the downtrodden that can bridge the divides between the people they champion and those they seek to alter in mindset. I'm no historian of civil rights. This is only my impression.

Here's the thing, though: you are affected by the problem. If you were to make your work--that tiny little sliver of the fantasy genre as a whole--more welcoming to people who are overwhelmingly marginalized, more readily able to be accepted as the pure entertainment you want it to be, your readership could expand dramatically. That's money in your pocket, to put it callously.

It might even add up to a bunch of your fellow writers gazing enviously at your success and analyzing your work to see how you got to be so incredibly popular, and then deciding to incorporate greater diversity in their own work. That's broad change that starts with you.

Also, I consider waiting for a Messiah or a Medger Evars or whatever you want to rise up and bridge the divide far more impractical than what I'm proposing. I'm no historian of civil rights, either, but I think that analogy works against you because desegregation had to be enforced at an institutional level before many white people grudgingly accepted it. Enforcing an agenda is what you're against, right? Nobody wants government regulation of fantasy novels, least of all me. (Though I will say that the BBC, which is paid for by a public TV tax, embraces a commitment to diversity. Just an example of how that kind of thing can work out positively.)

For you, personally, what about this message would change if it came from someone other than a white woman (who gets marginalized in the fantasy genre enough, by the way)?

These conditions only exist because these manufactured demons haunt your mind. Excerise them, then you can enjoy the story for what it is.

These conditions exist because problems of representation are everywhere. (I think you meant exorcise, by the way.) If a story is sexist, either in undertones that never get contradicted in text, or active in-text misogyny which cannot be blamed solely on a setting that happens to be patriarchal, that is what the story is. I can't enjoy it for what it is. It's not entertaining to see yourself marginalized.

 

[Jabrosky]

Actually, the way that writing is done now, you really don't pick up a lot of the physical characteristics of your MC's. The tight PoV and the minimalist approach guarantees this.

I don't know how to put this in a politically correct way, but I almost always feel a strong need to mention at least a few of my protagonists' racial characteristics. This is true for both my white and PoC protagonists. Usually I don't give that treatment to every character in the story though, just the protagonists or the first supporting character to represent a given race. For example, the first time a Middle Eastern person pops up in a story, I might describe his tawny skin color, dark hair, and arched nose, but I don't do the same to later characters of the same Middle Eastern background. I think describing one typical specimen of a given race is enough to describe the whole race.

Incidentally, the tight PoV issue is one reason I don't do First-Person PoV that often.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

I'm of like mind with BWFoster78 and TAS.

A few points I would like to point out. From what I've read (about 90% of this thread) the general consensus is that a story lacking multiple female characters discussing other things besides men is outdated. So, the way to balance antiquated beliefs of male dominance is to force male characters from a scene, or create scenes that feature only women, to be considered as a modern thinking writer.

The problem I have with anything labelled a "test" is the inferred meaning that whatever is tested is either right or wrong. That the purpose behind the test is right and those that fail the test are wrong. The people who feel that such requirements are mandatory should create content on their own rather than force every writer out there into a mold.

What is wrong with the stories of knights saving the damsel in distress from her dark fate? Are you saying that this isn't a story worthy of teaching males? That males shouldn't read such neandertholic stories because it features a somewhat outdated representation of a male saving a somewhat outdated representation of a female? Why are they considered outdated? Sure, a majority of the western women wouldn't sit around waiting for a man to show up and save her. A majority of western women.

What's so incredibly odd about this test is that is attempts to wipe out cultures and histories from our arsenal of things to build upon. There are posts I've read that lament the lack of diversity in fantasy settings. They ask why there isn't a story based on ancient Meso-Americans, or Africa, or the Far East. Are we to use these cultures only as clothing? The characters look the part, but don't deal with the problems faced found in the original culture. (The fact that we would even label these aspects as problems is a whole other post.) We can't incorporate the complete culture because they would fail some contrived "test".

Whenever a post hits the World Building Forums asking if this is right, or that can be done, the predominant answer is "Yes. It's you're world, do whatever you want." This rule applies to everything except gender (and other socially sensitive subjects) because it may infuriate a small population, or even a significant one? What is the saying? You can't please everyone so stop trying to or your writing will suffer. At the end of the day, isn't up to your wallets/purses/money clips/plastic to voice your opinions?

Another problem I have with this "test" is that a man and woman talking to each other about any subject matter isn't considered a proper representation of women. Why? Because a male is in the scene? So I can't have a queen address a duke in private about a need for resources. I have to think, before writing the scene, that it should be a duchess instead? Or, if I stay with that scene I have to comb over my outline to make sure another scene has two females talking about anything else except men......

No. Let me tell my story and I'll let you tell your story. I'll judge it for it's entertainment value. Whether you feature a whole cast of butt-kicking women or not, won't have any influence on my enjoyment. After all, the ultimate goal is to create something that we, and others, enjoy.

I agree with this. I haven't read the whole entire thread here but I have a good idea on what's been said. First ask ourselves, "why is it that women and men are typically portrayed this way? Where did we even get this inspiration?" Well, from human history. Countless cultures and customs generally put men above women, and in no way am I saying I agree with this, but it was a custom that dominated almost every culture for hundreds and hundreds of years. I believe that everyone is born equal, but just because I might have more men than women in my novel doesn't mean I think women are inferior.

I don't think we should put our novels or stories into tests, per say. You can have guidlines you want to follow and that's great for structure but to look at a novel and compare it to a test and say, "sorry, doesn't cut it." isn't a good idea in my opinion. Because that is what determines what is and is not a good book, opinion. It's the reason why I might dislike something and someone else really enjoys it. If we try to appeal to every crowd out there that demands something then what's the point in that?

That's like when I share my opinion with someone and because they are upset and disagree they actually expect me to change it. That happened to me one time and I jsut said, "Look, you're one of my good friends but this is a disagreement we have. And I'm not going to change my opinion because it might offend you or someone else because if I had to change my opinion to satisy everyone so that no one would be offened, we would all be the same person. It's really sad that today you can't seem to say, think, or do anything without offending people and then have them demand you change yourself.

I try to have a good ratio of men/women in my novels but it's not something that I really think about. I might say ok this character can be a girl and this is an old man and so on. It's not on a list of requirments for me to write my story. I could even write a story that had only women in it or only men. Does it mean I am sexist? Of course not! Diversity is great in novels, I wont disagree there. It would be pretty boring if everyone was the same ethnicity, had same attitude, same personality, etc. So yeah, diversity is a good tool especially if you are showing different cultures or beliefs but when it comes down to making sure I have X amount of Y gender, I really couldn't care less about it honestly. It's just not a huge priority, if one at all. Granted I don't think I would ever write a story with just one gender appeaing in it because that would just be odd (unless the plot called for that)

So there's my two cents. If i somehow offend anybody, I'm sorry and I do mean that. So don't read my books then you can't appeal to everyone. Write for what audience you know will accept your work, and good luck!

 

[Guru Coyote]

Just wanted to chime in here... as I dropped out of the flow of this thread somewhere on page 3 or 4... and it's now at 21 pages... Wow.

 

[saellys]

Wow indeed. Thanks for starting the thread, by the way!

 

[saellys]

I agree with this. I haven't read the whole entire thread here but I have a good idea on what's been said. First ask ourselves, "why is it that women and men are typically portrayed this way? Where did we even get this inspiration?" Well, from human history. Countless cultures and customs generally put men above women, and in no way am I saying I agree with this, but it was a custom that dominated almost every culture for hundreds and hundreds of years. I believe that everyone is born equal, but just because I might have more men than women in my novel doesn't mean I think women are inferior.

Since you haven't read the whole thread, I'm just going to quote myself on the relevant points; it's a lot easier than re-stating them for the umpteenth time.

You can write a female-excluding, patriarchal, and/or even misogynist world while still writing a female-positive story. No matter how your world treats women, women are part of your world and should be part of your story as well, barring the aforementioned extreme legitimate men-only examples.

-----

I don't think we should put our novels or stories into tests, per say. You can have guidlines you want to follow and that's great for structure but to look at a novel and compare it to a test and say, "sorry, doesn't cut it." isn't a good idea in my opinion. Because that is what determines what is and is not a good book, opinion. It's the reason why I might dislike something and someone else really enjoys it. If we try to appeal to every crowd out there that demands something then what's the point in that?

It's a test of whether you succeed or fail at including two women with names who talk to each other about something other than a man.

It is your world. You can do whatever you want. Just be aware that if you choose to present a female-excluding story, or a story that normalizes some harmful stereotype, you are likely to hear the opinions of your audience, and how you respond to those opinions will determine whether they remain your audience.

-----

That's like when I share my opinion with someone and because they are upset and disagree they actually expect me to change it. That happened to me one time and I jsut said, "Look, you're one of my good friends but this is a disagreement we have. And I'm not going to change my opinion because it might offend you or someone else because if I had to change my opinion to satisy everyone so that no one would be offened, we would all be the same person. It's really sad that today you can't seem to say, think, or do anything without offending people and then have them demand you change yourself.

Oh good, this is a new one! Fortunately, I get to reuse something from the sexist joke debacle I mentioned earlier in this thread: "Anyone who thinks it's impossible to make a joke [here, insert "state an opinion" or "write a good story" as the case may be] without offending someone needs to stay out of the comedy ["writing"] business while they work on growing an imagination." This may or may not be applicable to your relationship with your friends, but it is most definitely applicable, in my experience, to issues of representation in fantasy.

I try to have a good ratio of men/women in my novels but it's not something that I really think about. I might say ok this character can be a girl and this is an old man and so on. It's not on a list of requirments for me to write my story. I could even write a story that had only women in it or only men. Does it mean I am sexist? Of course not! Diversity is great in novels, I wont disagree there. It would be pretty boring if everyone was the same ethnicity, had same attitude, same personality, etc. So yeah, diversity is a good tool especially if you are showing different cultures or beliefs but when it comes down to making sure I have X amount of Y gender, I really couldn't care less about it honestly. It's just not a huge priority, if one at all. Granted I don't think I would ever write a story with just one gender appeaing in it because that would just be odd (unless the plot called for that)

My goal is not to highlight societal ills or draw attention to what I perceive as problems. My goal is to write the stories I would want to read and stories I can be proud of writing. Those stories naturally involve equality and representation. I realize this is not going to be of great concern to you, but equality and representation should be of some concern to everyone, since treating everyone equally is literally the baseline minimum standard for being a decent human being.

-----

So there's my two cents. If i somehow offend anybody, I'm sorry and I do mean that. So don't read my books then you can't appeal to everyone. Write for what audience you know will accept your work, and good luck!

There's that Someone Else's Job thing again. I as a writer can't personally do anything about how many minority writers are out there (let alone how many minority writers manage to get past the societal obstacles that keep them from telling their stories, like the female screenwriter who was told by a professor that people don't want to watch movies about female protagonists). I can do something about my own work.

At any stage--first draft, beta reading, or post-publication--it is vitally important to not dismiss the things our audience points out, and to give them enough respect to actually think about it. That's what can make us better writers in the future. Not to mention keep our readers our readers, and not make them jump ship to a better Sherlock Holmes adapta--I mean, uh, fantasy novel.

Since encouragement is only worth so much, it is absolutely no burden to us writers to contribute to the effort by diversifying our stories as well. I'm not trying to project a "white people have to do this to help the poor maligned minorities" thing--just a "we can, so why don't we" attitude.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

For you, personally, what about this message would change if it came from someone other than a white woman (who gets marginalized in the fantasy genre enough, by the way)?

Nothing. However, I still feel that asking people that aren't interested or passionate about a cause, to join your vision actively, is unrealistic. People require motivation to change (much like characters).

Until writers, embracing your cause, achieve the kind of renown and success needed for others to take notice & follow, that motivation will not exist. Those not inspired for this specific change will not be the champions you seek.

 

[saellys]

I don't know how to put this in a politically correct way, but I almost always feel a strong need to mention at least a few of my protagonists' racial characteristics. This is true for both my white and PoC protagonists. Usually I don't give that treatment to every character in the story though, just the protagonists or the first supporting character to represent a given race. For example, the first time a Middle Eastern person pops up in a story, I might describe his tawny skin color, dark hair, and arched nose, but I don't do the same to later characters of the same Middle Eastern background. I think describing one typical specimen of a given race is enough to describe the whole race.

Incidentally, the tight PoV issue is one reason I don't do First-Person PoV that often.

This is important to The Stone Front's writing team as well, and in part it's because ambiguously-described characters so often get automatically whitewashed in the reader's perceptions, publisher-commissioned cover art, and any potential film or television adaptations (may we all be so lucky). Katniss Everdeen had a very tight POV, but still managed to describe herself and most of the people in the Seam part of District 12 as olive-skinned, which promptly got ignored by basically everyone.

 

[Addison]

I read books based on the story that's told, not the lead role. Girl, guy, ogre, kitty, dust bunny whatever. As long as the story is interesting then I'll read it. The only times I find problems with girl or guy as lead role in stories is when I'm writing them. As I don't see any difference between what a boy or girl (man or woman) can do it's a challenge to find the best gender my character, by traits and how I see them acting in my head, fit into. I can close my eyes, watch a scene from a story and see them running down an alley or clobber a crook with a bat. I'll see what they're wearing, their height, but sometimes the face and physique are blurry. It takes a while to find the gender but I find it.

But seriously, the gender of the lead role doesn't, or at least shouldn't, affect the story and/or who reads it.

 

[saellys]

Nothing.

So the thing that might change your mind wouldn't... actually... change your mind? And if you were speaking about fantasy writers in general rather than yourself, if it wouldn't change your mind, what compels you to think it would change anyone else's?

However, I still feel that asking people that aren't interested or passionate about a cause to join your vision actively is unrealistic. People require motivation to change (much like characters).

What other external motivation can there possibly be, beyond people asking them to do something about it? How can there be an internal motivation or change of heart if they're not first educated about the problem and the importance of fixing it?

Until writers, embracing your cause, achieve the kind of renown and success needed for others to take notice & follow, that motivation will not exist. Those not inspired for this specific change will not be the champions you seek.

I'm not asking for a champion; I'm asking for a little help.

 

[saellys]

But seriously, the gender of the lead role doesn't, or at least shouldn't, affect the story and/or who reads it.

You are absolutely right--if the story exists in a vacuum. Fantasy stories have a long sad history of being predominantly about one type of person, to the exclusion and misrepresentation of everyone else. Anyone looking for something different stands to be turned off by seeing yet another story about the same kind of person, and may just skip it in favor of finding something that represents them for a change.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

So the thing that might change your mind wouldn't... actually... change your mind? And if you were speaking about fantasy writers in general rather than yourself, if it wouldn't change your mind, what compels you to think it would change anyone else's?

That makes my head spin...both of us I suppose. No, what I meant was the person delivering the message has no bearing on my acceptance. There needs to be other motivators involved. My example of a champion was meant to illustrate, and lead to, a writer who thinks as you do & achieving great success.

I'm not asking for a champion; I'm asking for a little help.

I understand. You need to be realistic about who you expect to help. Internal motivations are yours. Most wont have the same passion to develop internal motivations for this issue. External motivations, such as examples of success, will garner more attention than preaching from a pulpit (that comment is not meant to offend, only illustrate that preaching is not your best avenue for success).

 

[Addison]

...Fantasy stories have a long sad history of being predominantly about one type of person, to the exclusion and misrepresentation of everyone else. Anyone looking for something different stands to be turned off by seeing yet another story about the same kind of person, and may just skip it in favor of finding something that represents them for a change.

Uh...correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't writing your own story mean you can write it your own way? If you want the bad guy to win, go ahead, it's your story. Want the hero to....I don't know...go through the whole story walking on his hands? Go ahead, it's your story. Write it how you want to write it, not how hundreds before you have written.

For a written point on this subject, look up the American poem "Shake the Dust".

 

[saellys]

That makes my head spin...both of us I suppose. No, what I meant was the person delivering the message has no bearing on my acceptance. There needs to be other motivators involved. My example of a champion was meant to illustrate, and lead to, a writer who thinks as you do & achieving great success.

I see. No champion (or change) without success then? I realize that was the basis of the money-motivated example I wrote earlier that starred a hypothetical you, but the difference I'm seeing is that I think change can start a lot earlier, and what I got from your post is that nothing will change until someone who already wants change gets famous. I'm working on the whole being a famous writer thing, but I guess I'm just a hopeless idealist for thinking that minds can change before I have an armful of Hugos. Should I come back in a few years and try this discussion again?

I understand. You need to be realistic about who you expect to help. Internal motivations are yours. Most wont have the same passion to develop internal motivations for this issue. External motivations, such as examples of success, will garner more attention than preaching from a pulpit (that comment is not meant to offend, only illustrate that preaching is not your best avenue for success).

Education is external motivation. I'll grant you that it's nowhere near as powerful as examples of success, but right now it's all I can do. You've acknowledged that these issues are issues, and that we're all capable of doing something about them, and I think I've narrowed down everything that's actually stopping you, so that seems to be left is "I don't care enough." If you can't bring yourself to care enough to when the message comes from someone you "know" (inasmuch as we can know each other via this forum) and who shares many, if certainly not all, of your values about writing, what will the fame and success of the messenger change? Will it really change anything, or will the message just get dismissed some other way?

When I boil this down, it sounds suspiciously like you're admitting shallowness on the part of anyone who doesn't want to do something about the issue of representation in fantasy, but feel free to elaborate if I've got that wrong.

Uh...correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't writing your own story mean you can write it your own way? If you want the bad guy to win, go ahead, it's your story. Want the hero to....I don't know...go through the whole story walking on his hands? Go ahead, it's your story. Write it how you want to write it, not how hundreds before you have written.

The "write it yourself" argument is common and fallacious. The extension is that only women should write about women and only men should write about men--see the thread about writing the opposite sex for more on that.

... It is your world. You can do whatever you want. Just be aware that if you choose to present a female-excluding story, or a story that normalizes some harmful stereotype, you are likely to hear the opinions of your audience, and how you respond to those opinions will determine whether they remain your audience.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I see. No champion (or change) without success then? I realize that was the basis of the money-motivated example I wrote earlier that starred a hypothetical you, but the difference I'm seeing is that I think change can start a lot earlier, and what I got from your post is that nothing will change until someone who already wants change gets famous. I'm working on the whole being a famous writer thing, but I guess I'm just a hopeless idealist for thinking that minds can change before I have an armful of Hugos. Should I come back in a few years and try this discussion again?

Education is external motivation. I'll grant you that it's nowhere near as powerful as examples of success, but right now it's all I can do. You've acknowledged that these issues are issues, and that we're all capable of doing something about them, and I think I've narrowed down everything that's actually stopping you, so that seems to be left is "I don't care enough." If you can't bring yourself to care enough to when the message comes from someone you "know" (inasmuch as we can know each other via this forum) and who shares many, if certainly not all, of your values about writing, what will the fame and success of the messenger change? Will it really change anything, or will the message just get dismissed some other way?

When I boil this down, it sounds suspiciously like you're admitting shallowness on the part of anyone who doesn't want to do something about the issue of representation in fantasy, but feel free to elaborate if I've got that wrong.

Yes. I don't feel a need to change my writing which is pretty much where we began, although, I have given it some reflection. In addition, my current project, also as we discussed, has a decent diversity already (as judged by your criteria).

I don't see how I'm admitting shallowness. Your issues and goals are simply not as important to me as my own. Is that shallow? If so, then every human on the face of earth would qualify as shallow, yourself included.

We've come full circle.

Further, I hope you do achieve the level of success that sparks change. I want nothing less for you.

 

[saellys]

Yes. I don't feel a need to change my writing which is pretty much where we began, although, I have given it some reflection. In addition, my current project, also as we discussed, has a decent diversity already (as judged by your criteria).

I'm really glad to have inspired some measure of reflection through our discussion, and like I said way back, I'm glad your work is automatically diverse and I look forward to reading your current project. A whole host of writers, published and otherwise, don't naturally and organically create diverse and positive representations, and don't notice problems when they arise; hence the importance of education.

I don't see how I'm admitting shallowness. Your issues and goals are simply not as important to me as my own. Is that shallow? If so, then every human on the face of earth would qualify as shallow, yourself included.

The shallow part is the idea that no one will care until someone who does care is famous. Like I said, I guess I'm an idealist in that I believe change can happen before then, but simultaneously a cynic because I believe people would find ways to dismiss the message anyway because they just don't care.

We've come full circle.

With some very important distinctions made along the way, which I appreciate.

Further, I hope you do achieve the level of success that sparks change. I want nothing less for you.

Likewise, sir!

 

[Jabrosky]

I'm really glad to have inspired some measure of reflection through our discussion, and like I said way back, I'm glad your work is automatically diverse and I look forward to reading your current project.

I'm working on a project you might call "diverse" too. One of my Facebook friends and I are collaborating on an adventure story, geared towards younger audiences, about a young man who travels back in time to ancient Egypt (or the fantastical equivalent thereof). I am still ironing out the plot, but I do know that our hero teams up with a native warrior princess on some kind of quest. Although I currently picture the protagonist as the standard straight white male, the princess is a beautiful and dark-skinned African woman who acts as a protector for him, and the setting in general is dominated by PoC.