Gracieyorin
Acolyte
That was a fascinating read! Thanks for the link.
Now I am curious about the author and when it was written, but could not find any info on the page. Do you happen to know?
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That was a fascinating read! Thanks for the link.
Now I am curious about the author and when it was written, but could not find any info on the page. Do you happen to know?
Rosemary Tea
Auror
Starhawk is pretty well known, for being a writer, activist, and public face of Paganism. And I know her personally... slightly. We're nodding acquaintances.
But I first read that article on Beliefnet sometime before I met her. Probably 12 years ago or so. Which means it's been there at least that long. She mentions the upcoming movie, so presumably, it was written shortly before the latest movie version of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe came out. That was in 2005.
She's got her own website and blog: Regenerative Culture, Earth-based Spirituality, and Permaculture
Gracieyorin
Acolyte
I couldn't remember when that came out, but I knew it was awhile ago.
Thanks for answering my questions!
S.T. Ockenner
Istar
What's a 'nodding acquaintance'? How is that different from other kinds of acquaintances?
Queshire
Istar
They're the type of acquaintance that you recognize enough to nod to each other if you pass in the hallway.
Mad Swede
Auror
Wait one. The writer of that essay doesn't know what supposition is. Its a term from medieval philosophy which Lewis would have been familiar with given that he had a First in the "Greats" (Philosophy and Ancient History). Supposition isn't a what-if, its more complex than that, and its really about attempting to define or at least delineate a term which you then use to discuss a human concept. In that sense the Narnia books can be seen to discuss some Christian concepts. That doesn't make them allegory, nor does it make them evangelical or overtly apologetic.
The supposed Christian, allegorical and apologetic aspects of the Narnia books were completely lost on me. I loved them as fantasy stories. That might be because I'm dyslexic, but its probably more down to my grandmother. She was fond of telling me stories and legends from folklore, and being a farmers wife she didn't spend much time in church. Her view of Christianity was that the two key aspects were belief in God and the way you treated others.
Rosemary Tea
Auror
I know her well enough to say hi to, but not much more than that.
Rosemary Tea
Auror
Apparently, the writer of that essay is defining supposition a little differently from the way medieval philosophy uses the term.
Either way, the Narnia books work as a supposition.
Sometimes Fairy Stories May Say Best What's to be Said - The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe
It's always best, when discussing an author, to listen first to the author. Devor gives a good interpretation.
It's always best, when discussing an author, to listen first to the author. Devor gives a good interpretation.
It would be nice to return to the original post and do our Tolkien seminar <g> on another thread. In that spirit:
I was struck by a comment from Myers (second interview), to wit, in two parts:
>most mainstream fantasy doesn’t have a lot of faith-based elements in it,
Well, yes and no. A great deal of maintstream fantasy incorporates some sort of religion. It's often in the background, but it's there. And even more is incorporating religion (here in the West, mostly Christian) elements without even being aware. Conventions, morals, the mos maiorum. This isn't a criticism; most novels also incorporate some sort of capitalist economics, modern social structure (or modern understandings of pre-modern *grimace*), and so on. Few of us start with the blank slate. But it's worth noting that any of us could take pause and consider religion more explicitly and maybe turn up some good story ideas.
>and those that do don’t tend to be particularly kind toward religion in general
Alas, this tends to be the idea most commonly seized upon. I'm a lifelong atheist, but I'm also a medieval historian, and one doesn't get very far in that field by dismissing religion and faith as mere superstition or the wily machinations of an evil ruling class. Or even as an opiate of the people.
But if you think of religion--both doctrine and practice--as the vocabulary by which people express themselves regarding a whole range of topics, then religion becomes a lens through which we can view societies, families, individuals. As an author, that's endlessly interesting. Turning religion into the cartoon villain that it is in so much fantasy is no better than caricaturing armies or families or individuals. I don't call that bad or good. I do call it an artistic opportunity missed.
So I do appreciate Lynea Youmans posting the article and for conducting the interviews. Good grist for our many mills.
I was struck by a comment from Myers (second interview), to wit, in two parts:
>most mainstream fantasy doesn’t have a lot of faith-based elements in it,
Well, yes and no. A great deal of maintstream fantasy incorporates some sort of religion. It's often in the background, but it's there. And even more is incorporating religion (here in the West, mostly Christian) elements without even being aware. Conventions, morals, the mos maiorum. This isn't a criticism; most novels also incorporate some sort of capitalist economics, modern social structure (or modern understandings of pre-modern *grimace*), and so on. Few of us start with the blank slate. But it's worth noting that any of us could take pause and consider religion more explicitly and maybe turn up some good story ideas.
>and those that do don’t tend to be particularly kind toward religion in general
Alas, this tends to be the idea most commonly seized upon. I'm a lifelong atheist, but I'm also a medieval historian, and one doesn't get very far in that field by dismissing religion and faith as mere superstition or the wily machinations of an evil ruling class. Or even as an opiate of the people.
But if you think of religion--both doctrine and practice--as the vocabulary by which people express themselves regarding a whole range of topics, then religion becomes a lens through which we can view societies, families, individuals. As an author, that's endlessly interesting. Turning religion into the cartoon villain that it is in so much fantasy is no better than caricaturing armies or families or individuals. I don't call that bad or good. I do call it an artistic opportunity missed.
So I do appreciate Lynea Youmans posting the article and for conducting the interviews. Good grist for our many mills.
Mad Swede
Auror
Yes, it is best to listen to the author. And in the very first paragraph Lewis is quite clear on what he is writing - a fairy tale, first and foremost. Not allegory. Not an evangelical tale. Not Christian fantasy. Not something apologetic. There is an element of supposition, but it is not intended to be the main element.
Lynea's interviews are interesting and valuable, but they say much more about those she interviewed - and about those of us who regard the Narnia books as allegory or apologetics. I wonder if in fact it isn't our own sub-concious beliefs which inform our interpretation. Are some of us really as agnostic as we claim to be? Or have the supposed messages in those books had rather more of an impact on us than we care to admit?
Lewis is explicit. Two parts--the Author and the Man. Yes the very first paragraph says a thing, but it is not the only thing he says. Later paragraphs add depth and nuance. To look only at the Form (his term), one can conclude Narnia is only Fairy Tale. But that's only half the story.
Given the long history of Form and Essence, of Body and Spirit, of which Lewis was not merely aware but deeply informed, I view his choice of terms as significant. So, too, his choice of Author and Man, and of duality that runs right through the piece. And of course one would still have to account for the Perelandra trilogy, which does much the same thing but for an older audience.
But again, this draws away from the blog post and a discussion of the points therein.
Given the long history of Form and Essence, of Body and Spirit, of which Lewis was not merely aware but deeply informed, I view his choice of terms as significant. So, too, his choice of Author and Man, and of duality that runs right through the piece. And of course one would still have to account for the Perelandra trilogy, which does much the same thing but for an older audience.
But again, this draws away from the blog post and a discussion of the points therein.
Mad Swede
Auror
Not really. This is an important discussion, since it touches on how authors write (and why) and how we as readers interpret the books. One of the interviewers states that the Narnia books and The Lord of the Rings are explicitly Christian fantasy. I'm arguing that they are not.
Lewis' essay is very interesting, but if you don't understand philosophy (and Lewis was first and foremost a philosopher) then his arguments are easy to misinterpret. He is clear that he was writing a fairy tale, but in doing so he found himself using supposition (in its philosophical sense) to illustrate and discuss concepts and ideas from the Christian faith as a way of commenting on life. That makes his fairy story a novel. But that doesn't make it Christian fantasy, or allegory or apologetic or evangelical.
It goes a bit further than that though. Tolkien didn't really approve of the Narnia books since he (a devout Catholic) saw only the Christian message and didn't like the way Lewis brought in pagan elements. Lewis (by then a devout Anglican) saw no problem with mixing elements, since he was clear that he was writing a fairy tale which commented on some aspects of real life.
If you then take Tolkien's views on the Narnia books as an indication of his own views, then Tolkien's books cannot have been intended as Christian fantasy since there are so many pagan elements in them too.
I have a problem with those authors who explicitly set out to write Christian fantasy (or, in the case of Philip Pullman, a rebuttal of it) since I feel that all too often these elements take over. In fact, I'd go further than that and say that you don't need to write that sort of fantasy at all. Most of the world's religions have common moral and ethical elements, for example as regards behaviour towards others. That gives us as authors quite a broad base to stand on, and we can weave those common elements into our work and comment on the world around us without ever being explicit in our religious views.
It looks like we're rehashing the same argument over and over, and we've exhausted the usefulness of this derailment. We should probably get back to the purpose of this thread, which is to discuss the salient points of this very good article.
Mad Swede
Auror
Well, we can try to discuss the article, but we perhaps need to be clear what we mean by faith based fantasy.
Do we mean fantasy which readers feel is faith based? The Narnia books are a good example, where many readers think they are faith based. That leads to many negative reactions from more agnostic readers, who feel that the supposed message is too dominant, with the result that they don't read the books.
Or do we mean fantasy where the readers don't pick up on the underlying faith based nature of the story? David Gemmell's books are a particularly interesting example of this. His books are best sellers, and are often criticised for their macho characters and a perceived tendency to use violent incidents as plot drivers. Most readers miss the very deliberate inclusion of Christian themes, particularly the focus on redemption. David G admitted himself (I think he said it in an interview in Science Fiction and Fantasy News, which would make it some time in the mid-1990s) that his Christian faith influenced what he wrote and why his plots developed in the way they do.
Or do we mean fantasy where the underlying religious themes are very overt and the books are marketed at other Christians? The two people Lynea interviewed seem to belong to this category. Their experiences seem to suggest that their is a market for this sort of work, but that its a relatively small one. That might be because many mainstream readers dislike fantasy books with what they feel are overtly religious themes.
I don't think faith based fantasy is a difficulty sell because its uncommon, I think that its a difficult sell because most readers don't want to read it. Thats particularly true when the faith based element is overt, and Courtney Myers says as much in the interview when he talks about what makes a successful Christian fantasy tale: "For me, one that tells a creative and engaging story first and foremost, especially without banging me over the head with Christian dogma. I want to identify with the characters, enjoy the plot, and be fascinated with the world rather than be preached at for hundreds of pages." That is, I suggest, why David Gemmell got away with faith based elements and themes in his books and why Lewis doesn't seem to get away with it.
So, do I use religious lore as a basis for my fantasy setting? No, because I don't feel its needed. With that written, I do feel that there is a need for some sort of positive ethics and behaviours in my stories, that there needs to be some form of redemption and hope. I don't want to write amoral, nihilistic stories where doing the right thing is meaningless or impossible. In that sense you could argue that faith has influenced my writing, but I'd reply that my professional experiences have convinced me of the need for more escapist and positive stories as a way of balancing some of the more unpleasane aspects of real life.
Do we mean fantasy which readers feel is faith based? The Narnia books are a good example, where many readers think they are faith based. That leads to many negative reactions from more agnostic readers, who feel that the supposed message is too dominant, with the result that they don't read the books.
Or do we mean fantasy where the readers don't pick up on the underlying faith based nature of the story? David Gemmell's books are a particularly interesting example of this. His books are best sellers, and are often criticised for their macho characters and a perceived tendency to use violent incidents as plot drivers. Most readers miss the very deliberate inclusion of Christian themes, particularly the focus on redemption. David G admitted himself (I think he said it in an interview in Science Fiction and Fantasy News, which would make it some time in the mid-1990s) that his Christian faith influenced what he wrote and why his plots developed in the way they do.
Or do we mean fantasy where the underlying religious themes are very overt and the books are marketed at other Christians? The two people Lynea interviewed seem to belong to this category. Their experiences seem to suggest that their is a market for this sort of work, but that its a relatively small one. That might be because many mainstream readers dislike fantasy books with what they feel are overtly religious themes.
I don't think faith based fantasy is a difficulty sell because its uncommon, I think that its a difficult sell because most readers don't want to read it. Thats particularly true when the faith based element is overt, and Courtney Myers says as much in the interview when he talks about what makes a successful Christian fantasy tale: "For me, one that tells a creative and engaging story first and foremost, especially without banging me over the head with Christian dogma. I want to identify with the characters, enjoy the plot, and be fascinated with the world rather than be preached at for hundreds of pages." That is, I suggest, why David Gemmell got away with faith based elements and themes in his books and why Lewis doesn't seem to get away with it.
So, do I use religious lore as a basis for my fantasy setting? No, because I don't feel its needed. With that written, I do feel that there is a need for some sort of positive ethics and behaviours in my stories, that there needs to be some form of redemption and hope. I don't want to write amoral, nihilistic stories where doing the right thing is meaningless or impossible. In that sense you could argue that faith has influenced my writing, but I'd reply that my professional experiences have convinced me of the need for more escapist and positive stories as a way of balancing some of the more unpleasane aspects of real life.
I went back to see what the author herself had to say, as distinct from what the two interviewees had to say, and the central point I saw was the difference between Christian fantasy that was explicitly about faith and matters to do with Christianity, and those authors who use Biblical settings or themes without necessarily being about religion.
I realized there was nothing particuarly "fantasy" in this. One could just as will substitute "fiction" for "fantasy" and have the same sentence. That naturally led me to think of a wide range of literature. G.K. Chesterton's Father Brown. Ellis Peters' Brother Cadfael. The memorably unnerving A Prayer for Owen Meany by John Upton. Many, many more. All wonderful examples of using Christianity as a theme in a story, often the very foundation of the story.
Which in turn led me back to fantasy. What, if anything, would be peculiar to our genre? That is, what would make it Christian *fantasy* rather than just Christian fiction?
You'll note I'm saying Christian and not "faith". I would take the same questions I've raised and ask it of other religions. What would be Muslim fantasy? No, not Arabian Nights, but the themes and values that appear in Muslim literature that would then be found in specifically Muslim fantasy. Same for Judaism, Hindu, or any other religion. I simply don't know enough about them even to speculate. But I do think there's no such thing as "faith-based" without reference to specific faiths. Or if there is, it's of interest mainly to anthropologists, not to novelists.
I'm very much on the outside looking in here. I'm interested to hear from others, either in response to the article, to my questions, or with questions of their own!
I realized there was nothing particuarly "fantasy" in this. One could just as will substitute "fiction" for "fantasy" and have the same sentence. That naturally led me to think of a wide range of literature. G.K. Chesterton's Father Brown. Ellis Peters' Brother Cadfael. The memorably unnerving A Prayer for Owen Meany by John Upton. Many, many more. All wonderful examples of using Christianity as a theme in a story, often the very foundation of the story.
Which in turn led me back to fantasy. What, if anything, would be peculiar to our genre? That is, what would make it Christian *fantasy* rather than just Christian fiction?
You'll note I'm saying Christian and not "faith". I would take the same questions I've raised and ask it of other religions. What would be Muslim fantasy? No, not Arabian Nights, but the themes and values that appear in Muslim literature that would then be found in specifically Muslim fantasy. Same for Judaism, Hindu, or any other religion. I simply don't know enough about them even to speculate. But I do think there's no such thing as "faith-based" without reference to specific faiths. Or if there is, it's of interest mainly to anthropologists, not to novelists.
I'm very much on the outside looking in here. I'm interested to hear from others, either in response to the article, to my questions, or with questions of their own!
S.T. Ockenner
Istar
Why is everyone hearing the words 'Faith Based Fantasy', and assuming Christianity? There are [gasp] other religions, you know!
Insolent Lad
Maester
I think we could distinguish between a book being an allegory and having allegorical elements. The death and rebirth of Aslan is definitely an allegorical element but the novel The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is not an allegory for anything. It is as, as the author claimed, a fairy tale.
Darkfantasy
Inkling
I often see in old books that they were simply a form of what the times were. Which is why I don't think old works can be judged by our opinions today. People have become far too sensitive. I don't like hurting people's feelings and will avoid doing it at all costs, I don't agree in deliberately being hateful, but things are becoming too PC for me.
I don't really ever consider religion, I don't believe that God's exist. What does fascinate me in the belief behind it. Why do/can people believe so firmly, so to the point they are willing to die, for something they have no proof even exists. The capacity that human belief has is what fascinates me. And how one person can say 'I believe God is real and that there is evidence' and then can say but Santa is clearly a myth. I enjoy undertones of things in novels.
I don't really ever consider religion, I don't believe that God's exist. What does fascinate me in the belief behind it. Why do/can people believe so firmly, so to the point they are willing to die, for something they have no proof even exists. The capacity that human belief has is what fascinates me. And how one person can say 'I believe God is real and that there is evidence' and then can say but Santa is clearly a myth. I enjoy undertones of things in novels.
Mad Swede
Auror
Apart from the fact that the blog was about Christian based fantasy you mean?
Maybe its because most of us in this group are westerners and so are most familiar with and most exposed to Christianity. Yes, there are other faiths and other stories based on those faiths, but the real question is whether the key points in the discussion would be any different if we were talking about another faith?
As I pointed out earlier, most of the world's religions have common moral and ethical elements, for example as regards behaviour towards others. So why would the discussion differ?
