How do you go about consolidating a plot?

[Jessquoi]

Hey everyone,

I have had a lot of ideas over the past few years for characters and scenes of a book. It's like I know the characters and the world very well, but when it comes to thinking what's actually going to happen in terms of a general plot, I can never settle on one thing. And I don't want it to be just a good vs. evil story.

I'm not asking for ideas, but I'd like to know where any of you get your ideas for plots from and how you work them into coherent stories.

Thanks

 

[Chilari]

If you know the characters you should know what they want. Pick one and explore what they want. How would they go about getting what they want? How would it reflect society and the wants of other characters? How would achieving what they want impact upon the other characters? What obstacles would the character face in trying to achieve it? For example, how do the aims of other characters impact on this character's ability to achieve their aim? How does the character's other desires impact upon it?

What that aim is could be anything, from the big to the small. Think about motivations behind what they want - why they want it. Will achieving their goal improve their life? The lives of others? How?

 

[Anders Ämting]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. It's not about getting ideas - that's the easy part. Putting together a good narrative structure is a skill, like cooking a meal or building a house.

The only way to get good at it is to analyze the structure of other stories and develop a feeling for it through constant practice.

 

[Jessquoi]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. It's not about getting ideas - that's the easy part. Putting together a good narrative structure is a skill, like cooking a meal or building a house.

The only way to get good at it is to analyze the structure of other stories and develop a feeling for it through constant practice.

You're definitely right. Being able to create the right structure is key. But I'm still unsure of the characters motives in regards to the force that's stopping them. Because I'm not sure what that force is, maybe I've confused that force with creating plots instead of treating it as character creation.

 

[Jessquoi]

If you know the characters you should know what they want. Pick one and explore what they want. How would they go about getting what they want? How would it reflect society and the wants of other characters? How would achieving what they want impact upon the other characters? What obstacles would the character face in trying to achieve it? For example, how do the aims of other characters impact on this character's ability to achieve their aim? How does the character's other desires impact upon it?

What that aim is could be anything, from the big to the small. Think about motivations behind what they want - why they want it. Will achieving their goal improve their life? The lives of others? How?

Some of those questions are hard to answer, I guess because I'm also having trouble creating a villain... if there needs to be one. In fantasy there usually are villains I guess, so that creates a motivation for the protagonists to do something about that person. However I don't want to go down the villain-who-wants-to-take-over-the-world route.

 

[Chilari]

There doesn't have to be a villain in the traditional sense. Sure, have an antagonist. But just give them a motivation that is at odds with the protagonist's motivation - have it such that they both want the same thing and can't both have it, or that they want different things and one achieving what they want means that the other cannot. Or even have them not realise that there is this rivalry at all - in my WIP the "antagonist" is actually just someone my protagonist has chosen as being deserving of blame, someone she sees as being the eye of the storm, when in fact he's just trying to do the right thing and her perspective is skewed. The story is of my protagonist trying to get others to see her perspective, while struggling with the doubts that come about as she starts to see others' perspectives. It's an internal moral conflict between what she thought was the right thing at the start and what she starts to see over the course of the story. What she wants and what she believes gradually changes.

If you don't want a good vs evil story, just set up a conflict which isn't about good or evil, but about what people want, and how what different people want conflicts and interacts.

 

[Jessquoi]

Thanks Chilari, that helps a lot.

 

[Anders Ämting]

You're definitely right. Being able to create the right structure is key. But I'm still unsure of the characters motives in regards to the force that's stopping them. Because I'm not sure what that force is, maybe I've confused that force with creating plots instead of treating it as character creation.

Some of those questions are hard to answer, I guess because I'm also having trouble creating a villain... if there needs to be one. In fantasy there usually are villains I guess, so that creates a motivation for the protagonists to do something about that person. However I don't want to go down the villain-who-wants-to-take-over-the-world route.

Well, before we talk about heroes and villains, let's look at the the words "protagonist" and "antagonist" instead.

Now, the protagonist can be defined as the character in the story who goes through some kind of transformation, development and/or process in order to reach a certain goal. The protagonist is often the hero, but does not strictly speaking have to be.

The antagonist is the character who in some way constitutes an obstacle for the progress of the protagonist. Thus, in order to reach the goal or complete the development, the protagonist has to overcome the antagonist. Again, the antagonist is often the villain, but not always.

The hero is, put rather simply, whoever the audience is rooting for - the character you want to win. Correspondingly, the villain is the character you want to see lose. I would say antagonists are generally more important than villains, though I do think villains are fun. Anyway, it's possible to have villain protagonists and hero antagonists, or even more unconventional combinations. (For example: Two protagonists who are both the antagonist to one another.) It gets even more complicated if we bring up anti-heroes an anti-villains, but lets leave that aside for now.

I notice you seem to view your protagonists as reactive - you feel their motivation needs to be to "do something about the villain". That is a legit approach, basically how superheroes tend to work: They wait for the bad guy to do something and then try to stop them. Note, however, that in the traditional sense, this is actually an antagonistic trait. Without a clear goal to pursue in an active way, the heroes merely become the guardians of the status quo.

On the other hand, you can also go the other way and make the hero the one to take action. For example, if you are writing a classic hero's journey or quest, the protagonist has a goal to reach and the antagonist serves as a literal obstacle. A classic example would be Tolkien's The Hobbit. The heroes aren't actually setting out to stop Smaug because he's causing some sort of trouble. Rather, their goal is to reclaim the dwarf mountain and the riches within. Smaug is only the last in a long line of gateway guardians who happened to be standing in their way?

But again, you can do combinations. Perhaps the villain does something that the hero reacts to, which then sets the hero on the path to reach a personal goal where the villain ends up opposing him. Or perhaps the hero is already pursuing his goal, which causes the villain to act (react?), which in turn causes a reaction from the hero?

In the end, I guess it comes down to asking: Wether they are the good guys or the bad, what do your characters want, and how does those desires conflict?

 

[Chilari]

Yes, good point about what a protagonist and an antagonist is. Put that way I'd say that my POV character in my WIP is in fact both protagonist and antagonist. She sees someone else as the antagonist, but in reality it is her own beliefs and prejudices that are harming her ability to be happy.

I feel these make quite powerful stories - where there is internal conflict, where the nature of a character is divided, where one goal is at odds with another goal. Exploring the way characters' goals interact is one way to writing a strong story, but there's nothing stopping you exploring the way one character's different goals conflict with one another too.

 

[Jessquoi]

That's true and a very good way of explaining how to get out of the good vs. evil boat. Because real characters are more complicated than just that and the potential for conflict, as we see in real life, is everywhere. I see characters as reactive in general actually, regardless of whether heros or villains, protagonists or antagonists. If no one ran over anyone's foot in doing whatever they please in any story then there would be no reason for telling them. Someone's got to get someone else going.

 

[wordwalker]

Another point: you seem to have a lot of "ideas and characters," but maybe you aren't ready to settle on one main plotline yet.

What about exploring your ideas with short stories, both to get to know them and to speed up the learning cycle to get tales finished (always a good thing when we're starting out)? A good first novel might seem to burst on the world out of nowhere, but the author's still been training-- and getting some shorts published, or promoted on your website, is also the best way to build up the audience your novel will deserve.

EDIT: Actually, this overlaps well with the other points people have said. Getting a handle on someone's motivation and the action it leads to, and setting up the right opposition and lessons to learn for it, all work better if you start out practicing them in miniature. What would he go do and what would be the main thing in his way, and how are they different what he does in a different situation or what she does? What makes a good overall arc for a short story, how many ways are there to do it, and which do you prefer? Writing a story is a process, but you also want that to build that sense of what a complete concept looks like, by having several finished ones to compare.

 

[Helen]

structure

Exactly. That's what you've got to figure out first. It's a MASSIVE topic.

You can't really get to grips with plot until you do that, because plot is a subset of structure.

 

[ModerndayMaiden]

I actually need some help with my story. I have a main character who turns into a mermaid. Her best friend is like a brother and they are both orphans (due to some freak occurrence i have not yet established) Their tiny fishing village by the sea gets overtaken by thugs. They only seem to be killing villagers 50 and up. The people 16-30 are gathered up and taken to a hidden cave. (the bandits lair so to speak)
Anyway, my problem is the bandit leader is searching for the mermaid and he knows what age it should be but I cant think of what reason he might have for needing the creature... OR what his evil plans might be... Help??

 

[Feo Takahari]

@Moderndaymaiden:This seems like a separate question. I'd recommend creating a new thread for it.

 

[Jessquoi]

Exactly. That's what you've got to figure out first. It's a MASSIVE topic.

You can't really get to grips with plot until you do that, because plot is a subset of structure.

Ok then, so anyone got more tips in regards to learning about structure?

 

[Jessquoi]

Another point: you seem to have a lot of "ideas and characters," but maybe you aren't ready to settle on one main plotline yet.

What about exploring your ideas with short stories, both to get to know them and to speed up the learning cycle to get tales finished (always a good thing when we're starting out)? A good first novel might seem to burst on the world out of nowhere, but the author's still been training-- and getting some shorts published, or promoted on your website, is also the best way to build up the audience your novel will deserve.

That rings true with me, I'm not ready for the main plot yet. What I've is I've simply started writing with two of the main characters to see how it turns out. I'm not thinking about whether it's a novel or a short etc. but just writing to explore the story.

 

[Penpilot]

You're definitely right. Being able to create the right structure is key. But I'm still unsure of the characters motives in regards to the force that's stopping them. Because I'm not sure what that force is, maybe I've confused that force with creating plots instead of treating it as character creation.

I think the key to this is defining things simply before making them complex. The antagonist and protagonist have to be at odds with each other about at least one thing. I'm assuming you have a protagonist in your head. Ask yourself what do they want. This want should be basic and personal, nothing abstract like world peace.

Lets take for example one of the most common ones. Companionship (The girl/ The guy). Once you know what they want, there must be a clear and simple path to achieve that goal. For example. If Sir Bob ventures off and slays the dragon, he'll win the affections of Princess Peapod.

Now things are set up to find the antagonist. The antagonist has to stand in the way of the protagonist. In my example, the obvious one is a rival for Princess Peapod's affections. Another could be King Peapod who doesn't approve of the lowly Sir Bob. Maybe the antagonist is Sir Bob himself and his self doubt. Maybe along his journey to slay the dragon he realizes he doesn't need to slay a dragon to win the heart of Princess Peapod. He just needs to find the courage to ask Princess Peapod to the royal ball. Or maybe the antagonist are kidnappers who hold Princess Peapod for ransom, threatening to feed her to their trained dragon, who Sir Bob has to set out and slay. ETC. Options are limitless and depend on the type of story you want to tell.

Once you define these elements simply, the story that builds on them can get much more complicated. So long as you understand these basic things, you can used them to keep on the right track and not wander too far from the story you have in mind. From my experience, if you find yourself overwhelmed by complication, try to mentally simplify things, whether they be characters, conflicts, or plot threads. IMHO writers try to overcomplicate matters unnecessarily.

Ok then, so anyone got more tips in regards to learning about structure?

Here's a post I wrote on structure. It gives a basic run down of one way I break down my novel length stories. Maybe this will help.

http://mythicscribes.com/forums/writing-questions/3883-plot-problems.html#post48679

 

[Jessquoi]

Amazing. Thank you Penpilot. That helps me so much. After two days of being part of Mythic Scribes I've written nearly four thousand words about the characters I'm developing, whereas before I hardly knew where to start. I've also been doing diagrams of possible intentions of the characters, there are a lot of options but I have faith that I'll get there now. Thanks everyone. : )

 

[Addison]

Jessquoi, I had the same problem with my story. Seriously, the world I'd created was so full of people, places and possibilities that millions of ideas were pounding into my head. First off, not all plots of to be good vs. evil. It doesn't even have to be man against man. There's man vs. self, and man vs. nature. That said, evil comes in many shapes and forms.
If you have a lot of ideas jumping around, waving their arms and shoving their way forward for attention, don't worry. Just write down the ideas and look at them closely. Do so many take place in the same setting? Are these ideas centered around the same character's back story? These ideas could be little plots which tie into a greater story.
Hope this helps.