Is magic always "Fireball Throwing"?

[Steerpike]

I like the idea of magic actually being grounded in science and, ultimately, being a manipulation of the laws of the universe in accord with principles of science. I'm doing something similar with a magic system as well.

The one potential problem I foresee is that if you open that door, then the laws of science stampede through the doorway along with the rest of your ideas. For example, if you are going to have a magic system that is based on scientific principles, so that your magicians are really scientifically manipulating the physical universe (even if they may not realize it or understand it), then you have to deal with things like thermodynamics. If you move "magic" into the scientific realm as a manipulation of atoms or what have you, then you can't have spells that create something from nothing (mass of the system remains constant).

You could have a hybrid system, I suppose, but I'm not sure why one would.

In any event, the discussion is interesting because it looks like a few of us here are working magic as a sort of scientific enterprise rather than a black box of power for those who wield it.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

I like the idea of magic actually being grounded in science and, ultimately, being a manipulation of the laws of the universe in accord with principles of science. I'm doing something similar with a magic system as well.

The one potential problem I foresee is that if you open that door, then the laws of science stampede through the doorway along with the rest of your ideas. For example, if you are going to have a magic system that is based on scientific principles, so that your magicians are really scientifically manipulating the physical universe (even if they may not realize it or understand it), then you have to deal with things like thermodynamics. If you move "magic" into the scientific realm as a manipulation of atoms or what have you, then you can't have spells that create something from nothing (mass of the system remains constant).

You could have a hybrid system, I suppose, but I'm not sure why one would.

In any event, the discussion is interesting because it looks like a few of us here are working magic as a sort of scientific enterprise rather than a black box of power for those who wield it.

The thermodynamics problem can be solved by postulating that (for example) their ability works by opening tiny wormholes into the sun, which gives them an essentially unlimited source of energy (which, thanks to mass-energy equivalence, allows them to create objects from "nothing"). The wormholes are very small, so that the entire output of the sun doesn't pour through them, vaporizing the planet.

 

[Steerpike]

The thermodynamics problem can be solved by postulating that (for example) their ability works by opening tiny wormholes into the sun, which gives them an essentially unlimited source of energy (which, thanks to mass-energy equivalence, allows them to create objects from "nothing"). The wormholes are very small, so that the entire output of the sun doesn't pour through them, vaporizing the planet.

That would certainly do it. Or you could provide some other mass/energy source within the framework of your magic system. Maybe even have something that opens inter-dimensionally, drawing on mass that exists in the other dimension and thus not violating thermodynamics because your own universe is essentially no longer a closed system.

There are ways you can do it; as a reader, if you're going down the scientific path I'd expect these sorts of issues to at least be acknowledged and addressed, and then once that is done I'd give quite a bit of leeway in terms of the author's creative solutions.

 

[ThinkerX]

The one potential problem I foresee is that if you open that door, then the laws of science stampede through the doorway along with the rest of your ideas. For example, if you are going to have a magic system that is based on scientific principles, so that your magicians are really scientifically manipulating the physical universe (even if they may not realize it or understand it), then you have to deal with things like thermodynamics. If you move "magic" into the scientific realm as a manipulation of atoms or what have you, then you can't have spells that create something from nothing (mass of the system remains constant).

And there, you touch on another of the themes that interest me, and which feature into my stories: that of change over time.

In all too many fantasy settings, the culture/technology is static: take a knowledgable person from 2000 years in the past on one of them, drop him or her into the present, and aside from old cities destroyed, new ones rebuilt, and a new dynasty occupying the throne, its all pretty much the same - same feudal system (with maybe an odd twist or three) same magics (again with maybe a twist or three), same gods, with maybe a few new ones added or subtracted. Real, real unlikely to find a transformation from oil filled lanterns to electric lights, or anything resembling modern medicine instead of faith healing, or firearms replacing swords and bows.

On the one hand, low tech 'farmer societies' can and have lasted for thousands of years. On the other, even in those societies, there are technological and social changes that ... make things interesting, so to speak.

That is, in fact what is in the process of what is happening with the major nation of my world: at the time of most of the stories, there is/was an absolutely brutal war which resulted in advancements of both technology and magic. A semaphore system for long range communication. Telescopes becoming widespread. Printing presses (under strict government/church control). Complex clockwork devices and very crude steam driven contraptions (mostly for pumps). And other minor technological marvels.

Socially, the war saw a huge number of people pressed into the legions - war is over, soldiers mostly discharged, government coffers look like empty rooms, so the soldiers are being mostly paid off in land (a major upset to the quasi medivial society of before) as well as being granted full citizenship - in other words, the rise of a new middle class, which causes even more disruption.

As to 'magic'...to take it a bit further into the realm of science - if pressed, I would argue (at least in fiction) that it is a 'force of the universe' (like gravity, electromagnetism, ect) and cite a link with quantum mechanics along the lines of rigging the dice with the 'observer effect'. (Scroendiggers cat that is neither dead nor alive). Reality is likely to be even stranger.

'Magic' in the 'scientific system' I am using, well, it is definitely there, and there are some 'spells' (mostly tied to Lovecraftian monstrosities) that can be powerful enough to destroy cities under certain circumstances...but effects like that tend to be the exceptions, rather than the rule.

There are ways you can do it; as a reader, if you're going down the scientific path I'd expect these sorts of issues to at least be acknowledged and addressed, and then once that is done I'd give quite a bit of leeway in terms of the author's creative solutions

Way, way back in my college days, I saw a film in a psychology class that showed a fellow wearing what looked like an upseide down strainer tricked out by Rube Goldberg with the assistance of a stoned Nikoli Tesla. While wearing this contraption, this person was able to make an toy electric train move - just by 'thinking at it'. This was an untrained subject using stuff put together on the fly better than three dozen years ago. A few months ago, I saw and advertisement for a 'toy' that does much the same thing. The film I saw way back when got me to thinking...the guy in the film was apparently 'plucked at random'...but suppose you had somebody else go through that - somebody who scored real high on the old line PSI tests?...and used this, and things like this to 'train' their abilities. Human mind be a marvel...maybe enough of a marvel to allow for something like PSI.

That gave me the idea for the ancient aliens on my main world: their series of rather brutal experiments/operations/treatments created a large number of people, who, in todays terms, would score extremely high on the old line PSI tests.

Ok...I'm rattling on waaaayyyy to much here...

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

In all too many fantasy settings, the culture/technology is static: take a knowledgable person from 2000 years in the past on one of them, drop him or her into the present, and aside from old cities destroyed, new ones rebuilt, and a new dynasty occupying the throne, its all pretty much the same - same feudal system (with maybe an odd twist or three) same magics (again with maybe a twist or three), same gods, with maybe a few new ones added or subtracted. Real, real unlikely to find a transformation from oil filled lanterns to electric lights, or anything resembling modern medicine instead of faith healing, or firearms replacing swords and bows.

This is something that has bothered me about quite a few fantasy realms, not least Middle-Earth, but more presently in A Song of Ice and Fire. Apparently, the Wall was built, like eight thousand years ago, and apparently technology has not improved at all since then? They used magic to make the wall, so maybe when magic and dragons were prevalent, nobody really thought there was a need for improving technology, but you get the impression that it was really more or less the same as now, except with more magic. (Don't get me wrong, I love ASOIAF, it's just something that nags at me.)

It's one reason why I like the Wheel of Time so much: Jordan turned it into a cosmic cycle, where there's Ages of high technology, and Ages of medieval society, and it goes back and forth because of this continual process of destruction and advancement. If you accept the whole premise of the Wheel of Time (I mean the Wheel itself, not the book series) then it makes perfect sense that technology is, at this point in time, quasi-medieval.

 

[Hans]

And there, you touch on another of the themes that interest me, and which feature into my stories: that of change over time.

In all too many fantasy settings, the culture/technology is static: take a knowledgable person from 2000 years in the past on one of them, drop him or her into the present, and aside from old cities destroyed, new ones rebuilt, and a new dynasty occupying the throne, its all pretty much the same - same feudal system (with maybe an odd twist or three) same magics (again with maybe a twist or three), same gods, with maybe a few new ones added or subtracted. Real, real unlikely to find a transformation from oil filled lanterns to electric lights, or anything resembling modern medicine instead of faith healing, or firearms replacing swords and bows.

Is this stated as an in world fact or just told by some people living in that world? Look at medieval pictures for Roman or Greek stories. People are wearing medieval gown and using medieval tools. It is just in the perception of the people that nothing changed over that time period.
Feudalism of the early middle ages was very different of the lat middle age. Still it is described as feudalism. Early castles have very few in common with late built castles. Still both are described as castles. A reader might think, nothing changed.
Xerxes is called a king. Albert II. is called king. Does that mean nothing changed?

So who says in these stories worlds nothing changed, just because they use the same words as some hundred or thousand years ago?

 

[Ravana]

The one potential problem I foresee is that if you open that door, then the laws of science stampede through the doorway along with the rest of your ideas. For example, if you are going to have a magic system that is based on scientific principles, so that your magicians are really scientifically manipulating the physical universe (even if they may not realize it or understand it), then you have to deal with things like thermodynamics. If you move "magic" into the scientific realm as a manipulation of atoms or what have you, then you can't have spells that create something from nothing (mass of the system remains constant).

You could have a hybrid system, I suppose, but I'm not sure why one would.

Actually, I do this all the time, and have suggested "magical thermodynamics" here in the past. You already named the solution: the mass–or, rather, the combination of mass and energy–of the system must remain constant.

You know how much energy you'd release in annihilating a pebble?

The energy doesn't need to come from anywhere as esoteric as another dimension, or be channeled from the sun (or the center of the planet, or anywhere else). All you need is to remember TANSTAAFL. The caster draws in energy from his environment; a portion of this goes to controlling and directing the rest; the rest does… whatever it does. Up to the limit of what the caster can cope with, based on training, concentration, endurance, and resources available to be fed into the equation. Those who are practiced in this do this automatically, as a matter of course; those who don't tend to draw excessively upon their own bodies… to either their limit, or their detriment.

This, in fact, is what I find most useful about such a system–the "why to do it": it provides inherent limits on what the magic can do, so that you don't need to be ad hoc about it. You want to "make something out of nothing"? You better have something else that can become nothing in the process. If you don't, then tossing a small ball of fire might prove draining… but conjuring even a single coin will be fatal.

This also allows you to introduce interesting "scientific" principles into the magic, if you care to, based on the extent to which a character "understands" the principles. Change lead into gold? Someone who knew what he was doing would change mercury instead… though of course mercury is far scarcer than lead, so the profit margin wouldn't be as big. On the other hand, neither would the rads he's soaking. Want to throw a lightning bolt? Why draw the energy from matter–when there's more than enough static electricity in the ground? And so on. Of course, the characters don't need to know what they're doing: all they need to know is how to achieve the results. Just makes it a trifle more interesting if they do know what they're doing, and can help explain apparent differences in power levels between them.

 

[Amanita]

As fascinating as such a science-based magic system is, getting the information across to the reader is a great problem. I'm having to deal with this at the moment and I still haven't come to a solution.
If you don't mention the scientific background most people won't realise that it's there at all, but if you do, you have to explain, or many of them won't understand what's going on or don't even know, where the magic ends and where the science begins. Does anyone have any ideas as to how something like that can be done without boring the reader.

 

[sashamerideth]

Is there any reason that the reader needs to understand how a science based magic system works, if we don't want to tell them, or if the character doesn't understand it? As writers, we should know how it works, and never break our own rules, but this doesn't necessarily need to be conveyed to the reader. Just depends on the story.

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[Steerpike]

The energy doesn't need to come from anywhere as esoteric as another dimension, or be channeled from the sun (or the center of the planet, or anywhere else). All you need is to remember TANSTAAFL. The caster draws in energy from his environment; a portion of this goes to controlling and directing the rest; the rest does… whatever it does. ]

Yes, this makes sense. In most attempts at science-based magic systems I've seen, the author doesn't bother with this, or even bother addressing it. That is where the systems fail, in my view. I think you can employ any number of techniques, from using matter on hand to exotic things like tapping into a star or another dimension. But if you're going to root your magic system in science, then I think these considerations have to be addressed and not simply ignored.

 

[Steerpike]

Is there any reason that the reader needs to understand how a science based magic system works, if we don't want to tell them, or if the character doesn't understand it? As writers, we should know how it works, and never break our own rules, but this doesn't necessarily need to be conveyed to the reader. Just depends on the story.

I think the reader can be told enough to make it plausible in a very limited amount of space. Of course, if the people who use magic don't understand it themselves, then there is no reason to expect that it will be explained to the reader either. In that case, however, I wouldn't characterize it as having any kind of scientific basis, because even if you view it that way in your mind as an author, the inhabitants of the world your are writing about don't see it that way and that is the world in which the reader will be immersed. If the inhabitants of the world who use magic don't see it as having a scientific grounding, then I think the issue becomes irrelevant and it is indistinguishable to the reader from a regular non-scientific system.

If within the story itself the magic is perceived as science-based, then I think the author needs to hold up her end of the bargain by ensuring that is makes sense and is consistent with basic principles of science (or departs from them with explanations).

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

As fascinating as such a science-based magic system is, getting the information across to the reader is a great problem. I'm having to deal with this at the moment and I still haven't come to a solution.
If you don't mention the scientific background most people won't realise that it's there at all, but if you do, you have to explain, or many of them won't understand what's going on or don't even know, where the magic ends and where the science begins. Does anyone have any ideas as to how something like that can be done without boring the reader.

You don't have to explain it; but if you want your magic system to be based upon it, you can write it that way. The magic powers work in a way that is consistent with that rigorous physical explanation, even if the characters haven't the faintest notion about it, and even if you never say word one to the reader about it.

Most readers won't care: it's magic. It doesn't have to have a rigorous explanation. Harry Potter's magic system is absurd, and the books are beloved anyway, because JKR knows that the primary focus is the characters and the story, not the details of how magic works (although those details are used as important plot devices a number of times, even if the details aren't always consistent with other details provided earlier or later).

 

[sashamerideth]

I think the reader can be told enough to make it plausible in a very limited amount of space. Of course, if the people who use magic don't understand it themselves, then there is no reason to expect that it will be explained to the reader either. In that case, however, I wouldn't characterize it as having any kind of scientific basis, because even if you view it that way in your mind as an author, the inhabitants of the world your are writing about don't see it that way and that is the world in which the reader will be immersed. If the inhabitants of the world who use magic don't see it as having a scientific grounding, then I think the issue becomes irrelevant and it is indistinguishable to the reader from a regular non-scientific system.

If within the story itself the magic is perceived as science-based, then I think the author needs to hold up her end of the bargain by ensuring that is makes sense and is consistent with basic principles of science (or departs from them with explanations).

Hmm, a few more modifications to my story are in order. I have a mix of magic users that don't understand it, but one young lad that understands that when a crystal disappears, it is converted to energy, and used by mages. The others think the crystal holds the spell they want to use, so are unnecessarily particular about what crystals they use, but that's how they've been taught.

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[Steerpike]

Hmm, a few more modifications to my story are in order. I have a mix of magic users that don't understand it, but one young lad that understands that when a crystal disappears, it is converted to energy, and used by mages. The others think the crystal holds the spell they want to use, so are unnecessarily particular about what crystals they use, but that's how they've been taught.

I don't think you need to modify that The point I was trying to make is that if it never comes up in the story whether it is science or magic based, then it isn't relevant whether you address the scientific issues. But if it does come up, then I think readers are right to expect the author to have made those considerations.

 

[iskavele]

This idea I had for a magic system was that it was going to be a form of martial art. I actually had a scene where a "student" throws a said fire ball and the master gets angry with him because, to him, it wastes to much energy and is widely inaccurate. But to answer said question, no magic is not important to the story and can be left out, but if you can create a unique way to explain how magic works in your novel def. a plus if you ask me.

 

[ThinkerX]

As fascinating as such a science-based magic system is, getting the information across to the reader is a great problem. I'm having to deal with this at the moment and I still haven't come to a solution.
If you don't mention the scientific background most people won't realise that it's there at all, but if you do, you have to explain, or many of them won't understand what's going on or don't even know, where the magic ends and where the science begins. Does anyone have any ideas as to how something like that can be done without boring the reader.

As to explaining how the magic works...I tend to use conversations between characters. In one of my stories, a warrior washes up on an island where a wizard dwells. Said warrior simply doesn't know much about magic, so in their walks about the island between action scenes, the wizard, through analogies, explains some of the basics.

As far as understanding the 'science' behind the magic...I take the stance that even the understanding very experienced magicians is very seriously missing or downright flawed. The 'science' has yet to catch up with the magic.

 

[ascanius]

The one potential problem I foresee is that if you open that door, then the laws of science stampede through the doorway along with the rest of your ideas. For example, if you are going to have a magic system that is based on scientific principles, so that your magicians are really scientifically manipulating the physical universe (even if they may not realize it or understand it), then you have to deal with things like thermodynamics. If you move "magic" into the scientific realm as a manipulation of atoms or what have you, then you can't have spells that create something from nothing (mass of the system remains constant).

Dark matter. The universe has a mass greater than what we can currently observe. Instead of the wormholes to the sun or something else. Someone could easily come up with a dark matter energy source, hell it could even turn out to be true for all we know.

I just want to point something out though. Science is the observation of patterns in the universe/system/natural world, usually caused by an unobservable casual entity. This means that science is simply the study of something in the natural world to understand the pattern(s) behind it. Using this definition having a scientific magical system is actually quite logical. For instance. If spell one makes fire, what happens it the ending of spell two is used instead of that of spell one? All that is needed for a scientific magical system is one where the changing a variable produces a predictable pattern or trend. For instance adding a fixed mass of salt to water causes a decrease in temperature, what happens if a variable mass of salt is added, does the temperature change in proportion to the mass added? and can this proportionality be expressed mathematically. I took this example from an old lab, it is simple but I think it demonstrates that a scientific magical system is much simpler than many are making out to be, oh and the temperature of the solution decreases in proportion to the mass of salt added if anyone wants to know.

It becomes much more complicated if people are trying to create a magical system based off of the physical reality as we know it which I think most of you are talking about, just thought I would throw that out there. Now like Ravana mentions, using the theories of thermodynamics, conservation of mass and the rest of our scientific theories can still be done as explained in one of the previous posts

This also allows you to introduce interesting "scientific" principles into the magic, if you care to, based on the extent to which a character "understands" the principles. Change lead into gold? Someone who knew what he was doing would change mercury instead… though of course mercury is far scarcer than lead, so the profit margin wouldn't be as big. On the other hand, neither would the rads he's soaking. Want to throw a lightning bolt? Why draw the energy from matter—when there's more than enough static electricity in the ground? And so on. Of course, the characters don't need to know what they're doing: all they need to know is how to achieve the results. Just makes it a trifle more interesting if they do know what they're doing, and can help explain apparent differences in power levels between them.

I agree that the characters/magic casters don't need to know what exactly they are doing but how to do it. The ancient Greeks understood that if heat was supplied to water it would boil. Or when it was cold water would freeze. They did not know that adding energy to the system simply increased the kinetic energy of the water molecules to the point where the rate of evaporation became greater than that of atmospheric pressure. This is really cool and I though I would share. Check out the triple point in states of matter. It is the point where conditions are right allowing simultaneous sold, liquid, gas state changes. A substance can literally freeze boil and sublimate all at the same time. It's really cool to watch and much simpler than you would think. They didn't know that water through hydrogen bonds broke salt into their cation and anions but that the salt no longer remained solid.

I think the best bet when using a magical system based on the physics of our reality is to keep it simple and basic. Energy to do magic has to come from something, a fire burning, and the spell moves this energy to achieve goal x. I would suggest not using, spell Y works because the spell relocates the energy released in the formation of bonds from the combustion of oil forming COsub2 and water. This electromagnetic radiation released is transferred to the steel ions increasing the kinetic energy so the metallic bonds are broken moving steel from the solid state to the liquid state in what we see as melting. I think when too many details are present in fantasy it takes away from the primitive aspect of the entire setting. For me it creates a discord between two aspects and makes me wonder why they are still fighting with swords and spear. I think Ravana makes some very useful points though on this topic and ways it can be used to create rules and limitations while giving it more depth than something like in Harry Potter, to each his own.

Hmm, a few more modifications to my story are in order. I have a mix of magic users that don't understand it, but one young lad that understands that when a crystal disappears, it is converted to energy, and used by mages. The others think the crystal holds the spell they want to use, so are unnecessarily particular about what crystals they use, but that's how they've been taught.

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I honestly like the idea of different people having a different understanding of magic in the world, I find it much more believable than everyone even if they all study it all have the same knowledge.

 

[Reaver]

Every point made in this thread is very informative and fascinating. To be quite honest, I've never even considered the magic in the world my stories take place in to be science-based at all. It's just one of those things that just is what it is. Yes, it's debated by the scholars and practitioners of this world as to how it came to be and all that, but when it comes down to it, no-one can definitively say what it is or where it originated. This innate mysterious quality works for me, and hopefully for my readers.

 

[quenchy]

Anyone read the book "Celestial Matters"? In it magic doesn't exist, but the universe works based on Ptolemaic laws (I hope I'm writing this correctly). The matter has innate properties - for example, the fire moves in circle around the center of the universe - the Earth - and away from it, to the end of the universe. The lunar matter also moves around the earth matter and is repelled by it. The outer space is filled with aether. The mechanics of gravity and motion are based on the innate properties of every kind of matter or element which move according to 3 or more of the celestial spheres, which are the center-points of the universe. The theory of self-generation of living matter is proven and used en masse - from different kinds of human and animal waste the alchemists create animals such as sheep, goat and cattle for the population to eat. The Greek Simachia (one of the two super-powers) uses lunar matter to create airships which use special projectiles that intercept enemy vehicles and soldiers based on the innate movement according o the position of the spheres, and the ships are used to cruise the aer and the aether with hundreds of crewmen eating self-generated food.

If you like such a prospect, you could base your magic on obsolete scientific theories and your mages can simply be scientists in a world that is transcending from the dark ages to the early Renaissance.

 

[Wormtongue]

In my world magic always has a price. The energy has to come from somewhere. I see a wizard as more of a channel for magical energy than as a huge magical battery. And magical energy isn't limitless.

So Harry Potter, or D&D style magical combat is simply not possible. The kind of energy for those battles simply wouldn't be available.