Learning by Writing

[Philip Overby]

It's great to have a place to post questions, thoughts, or concerns about our writing. And I think some of the advice I've gotten here at Mythic Scribes has helped me grow a lot as a writer. I just read something Patrick Rothfuss said (and I'm sure hundreds of others have said as well) that makes me think a lot about my struggles finishing my first novel. About my hopes being supplanted in finishing it and sending it off to be considered for publication. I found this from the earlier thread made about Rothfuss's book he found that he wrote in high school:

Here’s the thing. Am I glad I wrote this book? Were the hundreds of hours I spent slaving away at it worthwhile?

Absolutely.

The whole purpose of your early writing is to make mistakes so you can get them out of your system. That’s what first novels are for.

Coming to a close on my first (finished) novel has really made me realize how many mistakes I've made. And I've learned a lot from just writing. I've learned what style I like to use, how I like to plot, how I like my characters to evolve, how I prefer my descriptions of scenes. I've learned so much of this from just writing. I think everyone has their own specific way they like to do things and it doesn't matter how many times someone says "that way is wrong" you have to just learn what works and what doesn't work for you by yourself. By writing.

I find forums like this and books about writing to be invaluable at times, but sometimes it may be best to just write instead. Nothing can substitute for just doing something. That's one reason I love the Challenges and Showcase section here (cheap plugs) because you can practice and learn by doing.

So what does everyone think? Is early writing meant to be just a learning tool and not for mass consumption? How many novels/stories do you need to write before you "get it?" I know there's no magic number, but what do you think?

 

[Anders Ämting]

I said this in the First Story thread as well, but there is a period during which an inexperienced writer will mostly write junk and I absolutely believe that ones needs a certain degree of unrealistic confidence in ones own abilities to power through it.

How many novels/stories do you need to write before you "get it?" I know there's no magic number, but what do you think?

I don't think it's a matter of how many stories you write. I mean, I have a terrible track record of finishing stories, but I'm still way better than when I was getting started. I think it has more to do with achieving a personal style through contemplation and experimenting with various ideas.

 

[BWFoster78]

I find forums like this and books about writing to be invaluable at times, but sometimes it may be best to just write instead. Nothing can substitute for just doing something. That's one reason I love the Challenges and Showcase section here (cheap plugs) because you can practice and learn by doing.

I think that Challenges and the Showcase are awesome ways to improve. I was never able to spot the problems with my own writing well enough learn from doing it. My process was more:

1. Write something that I thought was awesome.
2. Get specific feedback telling me where I screwed up and how very not awesome it actually was.
3. Really thoughtfully explore that feedback. Study it, and take what advice I could from it.
4. Write something else and repeat.
5. Evenually got to the point where most of the comments are, overall, positive.

Is early writing meant to be just a learning tool and not for mass consumption?

I think there are probably people out there who have an inate talent such that their early stuff is quite good, and their later stuff, once they've gained more experience, is fantastic. I also think that most of us aren't that lucky. My first tries were, at best, somewhat readable. Had I tried to self publish that crap, I'd be seriously embarrassed right now to have my name associated with it as something I asked people to pay for.

How many novels/stories do you need to write before you "get it?" I know there's no magic number, but what do you think?

The standard learning curve shows that, when you start writing, putting in a little bit of time learning improves your ability greatly. The longer you study and practice writing, the less benefit you get out of each additional hour. Somewhere around the middle of the curve, you're probably producing stuff that's worthy of consumption, but I think the actual hours spent varies by individual. My advice is to wait until your improvement starts to level off before trying to produce something you want to sell.

Also, a well-known rule of thumb is that it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert at something.

 

[SeverinR]

I think if a person is honest with themselves, they know something isn't great. They might not know how to fix them correctly.
but they know it isn't perfect.
I think you can improve in writing without feedback to a small degree, because we know what we like and what sounds right.

I don't think you can come anywhere close to being published without alot of feedback and studying what works and what pitfalls or gimmicks to watch out for. Those rules that well read authors break all the time, but remain rules in writing for a reason.

Feed back, what other people have learned is important also. Learning from others mistakes will help your writing alot. That is why I come here, to learn from others, and to see thigns from a different angle then I would normally see things.

 

[Xaysai]

As a very new and inexperienced writer, I can honestly say that I would have made ZERO progress with my writing if not for the feedback from Mythic Scribes. I've been told by people all my life that I was a talented writer, but it was by people who don't really know any better.

Personally, I am with Brian on the following:

1. Write something that I thought was awesome.
2. Get specific feedback telling me where I screwed up and how very not awesome it actually was.
3. Really thoughtfully explore that feedback. Study it, and take what advice I could from it.
4. Write something else and repeat.
5. Evenually got to the point where most of the comments are, overall, positive.

...and I am stuck on #4, as I should be, until I work out all of the kinks. It just takes time!

@SeverinR:

I think if a person is honest with themselves, they know something isn't great.

I'm starting to get a better feel for when something is good, but I am completely incapable of identifying some of the more technical problems with my writing. I am completely "tense dumb" and "POV blind". Often times when someone points out where I have switched tenses or POV's, it I still don't see it. I just need more practice.

 

[Mari]

I think there are people who write a novel and have not only be published, but be great, even a classic.

That said, I am those folks have been kissed by the muse, and I doubt, I am really doubt, that any of them didn't have many folks help them along the way.

I personally, and I hope this doesn't come across as too bitchy, but I just had a friend who finished their first novel, which has taken years. Mostly because they didn't work at every week, let alone every day, but I have doubts that it really is all that good. I read and thought it was, good, but far from great. In other words, I would not have read if it wasn't written by a person I knew in RL.

I personally, think writing is real work. Although I know they worked hard on the novel, and that he himself is intelligent and has a good sense of humor.

I also think it also shows that he has hasn't written 100 short stories, or sold even one. I think it shows that it his D@D adventure. But that's me. And think writing, for most, is real work. I think it's a craft.

 

[Addison]

I believe that writing is a work of art, passion. If you're not passionate about it, if you don't write it with an "Oh my gosh this'll be fun! I gotta write this, I gotta save this awesome world and adventure I'm seeing." Then it's most likely work. Like typing of memos or bathroom schedules. Without passion, writing is work.

 

[Leif Notae]

Writing is great, and I accept there is a certain amount of learning from that situation. However, much like in other businesses, you also need to have some mentoring too. Someone teaching you the odds and ends, why you made the mistakes and how they made them too. The re-encouraging voice that can slap you on the back when you do well and smack you on the backside when you mess up.

 

[Penpilot]

I written two novels. The first one was a complete mess, but yes, I learned soooo much because I failed. They were things I couldn't learn if I hadn't stepped up and just wrote the darn thing. My second book I learned a ton too. I think with each story we write, we learn something. Some learn faster than others and that's why I think some only need to write one or two books/stories before getting published while others need to write more. But we should always be learning. If you're not, then maybe you're not trying hard enough.

 

[dwellerofthedeep]

Learning through writing is definitely important. However, I would stress, having recently completed that mythical first Million words that if you aren't examining your writing at some point, you won't learn as much from it. Editing is also a vital part of the learning process (damn, I hate to admit it).

 

[advait98]

The first hundred pages I wrote of my story, I thought I was getting really good, but then when I reached the 200 page mark I noticed I was getting progressively worse. I took a break of 2 months from writing when I reached the 140 page mark and got really stressed, and then continued again. A little better, I thought. And after 200 pages I feel I'm in the downward spiral again. I understand this learning by writing thing, but can anyone help me out here as to what I'm doing wrong?

 

[BWFoster78]

The first hundred pages I wrote of my story, I thought I was getting really good, but then when I reached the 200 page mark I noticed I was getting progressively worse. I took a break of 2 months from writing when I reached the 140 page mark and got really stressed, and then continued again. A little better, I thought. And after 200 pages I feel I'm in the downward spiral again. I understand this learning by writing thing, but can anyone help me out here as to what I'm doing wrong?

No idea without seeing your writing. If you haven't already, post a sample in the Showcase area and get some feedback.

Just from your post in another thread, seriously think about studying the impact of characters on story. Maybe your POV is too distant for your writing to create any kind of emotional depth.

 

[Penpilot]

The first hundred pages I wrote of my story, I thought I was getting really good, but then when I reached the 200 page mark I noticed I was getting progressively worse. I took a break of 2 months from writing when I reached the 140 page mark and got really stressed, and then continued again. A little better, I thought. And after 200 pages I feel I'm in the downward spiral again. I understand this learning by writing thing, but can anyone help me out here as to what I'm doing wrong?

First, your mood, and what ever else is happening in your life will affect your writing. Second, there are always ups and downs with writing. Some days you suck. Some days you don't. Third, it's not about page two being better than page one and page two-hundred being better than page two, it's about story two hundred being better than story one. People have said it's a marathon not a sprint.

As you grow and develop as a writer those up and down swings I mentioned become less erratic. Your sucky days won't suck as much. It's about developing consistency in your level of writing.

As for what you're doing wrong. Nothing. Everything. All points in between. Write. Finish. Repeat, and that's when you'll get better. It's a slow climb. No secret rocket boosters here.

 

[advait98]

impressive, thanks. I knew I made the right decision coming here. Penpilot, I'll try to instill your advice into my brain, nothing better than humility to gain a fresh perspective. BWFoster78, yeah I guess that could be a problem, but my main characters have grown a lot during the last few months, and I'm hopeful that will no longer be a concern.