Sad Endings

[Benjamin Clayborne]

I don't know why people are so hung up on the Greeks.

I'm willing to bet that modern film would win in a Hollywood vs Greek story off.

I think that would depend entirely on the judges. Modern judges would probably prefer modern works. Ancient Greek judges would probably be perplexed and confounded by modern storytelling, and would prefer the Greek stuff.

I'm not sure what this would prove, exactly, except the fairly obvious notion that people like the things they are familiar with.

 

[Chilari]

Have you seen Hollywood films? There are a few good ones, but the bulk are utterly awful. Have you see any Adam Sandler films recently? Or Transformers: Dark of the Moon? Fast and Furious 5? And don't even get me started on Immortals - purportedly about the Greek gods but in fact nothing but a bad fantasy story using names of Greek heroes and gods, and using the most stupid headwear I have ever seen in a film. I was ready to walk out of the cinema half an hour after the start, and only stayed out of a morbid fascination to see where it would go, and because it's a small cinema and they shut the box office after the last film of the evening starts so no refunds anyway. In fact, I ended up writing an article about it which is earning me a very small amount of money.

In any case, how can you judge the quality of Greek stories when you've never read any? Particularly in comparison to Hollywood, which in any case has different aims and uses different themes to the ancient Greeks, because they're what is popular now (the Greeks liked different types of heroes to us). Comparing two things produced in very different contexts, with very different attitudes and approaches, by the standards of only one of them, is redundant.

 

[myrddin173]

I don't know why people are so hung up on the Greeks.

I'm willing to bet that modern film would win in a Hollywood vs Greek story off.

Hollywood is so underrated.

Call me a philistine.

Voldermort, this a very harsh thing to say. The Greeks were the foundation of much of English literature, there is a reason people have been studying the classics for centuries. Comparing them is entirely subjective. It would be like comparing an impressionist and a cubist painting they use vastly different methods.

 

[Voldermort]

In any case, how can you judge the quality of Greek stories when you've never read any?

Oh come on, of course I have.

 

[Voldermort]

Voldermort, this a very harsh thing to say. The Greeks were the foundation of much of English literature, there is a reason people have been studying the classics for centuries. Comparing them is entirely subjective. It would be like comparing an impressionist and a cubist painting they use vastly different methods.

What about the Chinese, Indians, Aboriginals? People existed before the Greeks you know.

Too much Greek idolatry whilst ignoring the rest, IMO.

 

[Voldermort]

there is a reason people have been studying the classics for centuries.

Hmm...they're classics of European civilization. The classics of other civilizations have been largely ignored, for reasons which go back to the Empires, colonialism and all the rest of it.

You can't say that one pile is better than the other pile, when you've burned the other pile.

 

[Devor]

Hmm...they're classics of European civilization. The classics of other civilizations have been largely ignored, for reasons which go back to the Empires, colonialism and all the rest of it.

You can't say that one pile is better than the other pile, when you've burned the other pile.

It's not always a judgement of quality. It's also a judgement of influence. The Greeks have had a greater influence on modern storytelling, and that's why they're respected in our education systems.

 

[Voldermort]

It's not always a judgement of quality. It's also a judgement of influence. The Greeks have had a greater influence on modern storytelling, and that's why they're respected in our education systems.

I don't know about that. There is a timeline that stretches back way past the Greeks but that we choose to start at the Greeks. The Greeks were not the originators of story - their stories were the result of influences too.

This has more to do with the Battle of the Civilizations. It soothes our ego to say that the Greeks originated it, because WE ARE GREEKS / WE ORIGINATE FROM EUROPE.

 

[myrddin173]

I don't know about that. There is a timeline that stretches back way past the Greeks but that we choose to start at the Greeks. The Greeks were not the originators of story - their stories were the result of influences too.

This has more to do with the Battle of the Civilizations. It soothes our ego to say that the Greeks originated it, because WE ARE GREEKS / WE ORIGINATE FROM EUROPE.

I don't think anyone here has said said stories started storytelling they're stories just had a profound influence on western literature. Likewise Chinese classics influence Chinese literature.

 

[SeverinR]

If all stories have a happy ending, why read all the way to the end?

Not every hero can ride off into the sunset with the fair maiden at his side, in search of the next adventure.

I have hated the endings, but loved the story. Not because of it being written poorly, but because I wanted something different to happen. Sometimes the cavalry doesn't get there just in the nick of time. Sometimes Spock must die.

I would say the best ending is not the perfect "everyone lives happily ever after", but one that things were lost, things were won, and it mattered that the story was told. A meaningless death of the MC means the reader wasted time in reading the book. The end must have meaning, good or bad.
The worst ending imo;
the story was all a dream or was completely changed by time manipulation. The char's went back in time and changed the whole story before it even started or just where it started.

 

[Sheilawisz]

My first Fantasy series has a rather strange bittersweet ending, not really sad, but it's not exactly a happy ending anyway- For my second series I was originally planning a sad ending, but I came to love my characters and their adventures so much (especially the main character!!) that now I changed that and a happy, mysterious ending is coming for that series =)

 

[Reaver]

Are you going to share that story with us? I certainly hope so.

 

[Dark Huntress]

TI have no problem with sad endings if they are a natural outcome of the story. What I don't like is endings that seem forced. Endings that tie the story up in a nice little bow even though the story did not support it. You go though the whole novel knowing that it would take a miracle for a happy ending and then just before the story is over, that miracle happens and everyone walks off under a rainbow.

But then I tend to like the dark side.

 

[Klee Shay]

Voldermort - You can't say that one pile is better than the other pile, when you've burned the other pile.

I love this line. I want to use it for my signature!

As to the original reason for this thread - all of my story endings surprise me. I never plan them because my characters always fight me on these issues. They're constant telling me things like 'I ain't dying and you can't make me" or "I really don't feel like doing that right now . . . maybe later."

I find it easier to let the characters and the story take me wherever they are going. I just enjoy the ride and hope potential readers will, as well.

 

[mirrorrorrim]

Pretty sure Euripides beat Shakespeare to the punch.

Actually, after reading this thread and the replies (and also the trilogies thread), I really started thinking about why I was struggling so much with my tragic ending story, and have finally worked out what the real issue behind it is. The reason I can't stop thinking about the story is because I believe in it; the reason I struggle to write it is because I don't believe in my ability to write a tragedy. So I'm going to go back right to the beginning of tragedy and look at what makes those ancient Greek plays so powerfully tragic, and see what I can take form them, in terms of pacing and character agency, to apply to my novel. And then I'm going to stop with the self-doubt, or at least ignore it, and just write as best I can according to the plan.

I might have to think more about whether to have a hopeful wrapping-up bit at the end, as mirrorrorrim now plans to do, because I'm not sure it'll fit, but this thread, dispite being fairly short still, has already helped me a huge amount when thinking about tragedy.

I think that's a great idea! I hope you'll share what you learn from reading them! I think I might try to do the same thing. The Greeks, who enjoyed tragedies, were probably better at telling sad stories than most of us today, who have grown up loving Disney fairy tale happy endings. And that is not to discredit Disney, because I love their films dearly (my avatars are something of a testament to that).

Just because two approaches are different doesn't mean they're not both valuable. I think that applies to the discussion of West versus Everywhere Else. Just because the works of China, India, Aboriginal locations, or any other period/region are sometimes undervalued (and I think they often are) doesn't mean that Greek literature is necessarily overvalued as a result. Giving value to one doesn't mean you have to take value away from any other. I'm sure The Tale of Genji is a great book, and I hope to read it some day [for those of you who don't know, The Tale, is considered by some historians to be the world's first novel]. But even if I do, and I love it, I don't think that'll make me appreciate The Iliad any less. My love for Tolkien doesn't diminish my admiration for J. K. Rowling.

That's just my two cents, though.

I assume Project Gutenberg would probably have all/most of the Classical Greek tragedies. I'll have to check and see.

 

[Chilari]

I assume Project Gutenberg would probably have all/most of the Classical Greek tragedies. I'll have to check and see.

I'd have thought so. I am fortunate to have many in book form. There's nothing like the smell of a real book.

 

[mirrorrorrim]

I'd have thought so. I am fortunate to have many in book form. There's nothing like the smell of a real book.

That's very lucky. With a small apartment, it's hard for me to collect books in physical form. If I get very many more than twenty, I end up having to give some away. My Kindle, on the other hand, has over twenty books already, and doesn't take up as much space as even a single paperback book!

 

[Chilari]

Ah, well, I still live with my parents. When I move - and that's not far away - I will need to cut down my 250-odd books to about 30. Not a fun exercise. Won't be able to keep all the Pratchetts if I want to hold onto my Routledge Ancient World series or my Thucydides and Herodotus, and that's not even considering all the Gemmells and Hobbs and my Austen collection and the Gaimans and...

For the fiction side of things, I can only justify in confirming my signed copy of Terry Pratchett's Snuff, my favouirte book of all time Howl's Moving Castle by the late Dianne Wynne Jones, my favourite Gemmell Hero in the Shadows and Gaiman's Graveyard Book. All others will have to go through the selection process and many will end up not within reach of my bed but in the local library. Now that's a sad ending... for me, anyway.

 

[Gwynneth White]

In the first draft of my book one of the MC was a real swine. i had him do everything from murdering his father to chaining his son to the wall... but he was never happy with it. He kept trying to tell me that he wasn't that kind of person, that he had stronger motivations than I was giving him. So I finally gave him voice. He still allows his father to be murdered and has his son chained to the wall - but not just because he is a nasty piece of work. I think the book is stronger for the change. Perhaps you need to look at what is driving your doubts. Are you just too much in love with your characters to harm them, or are the genuinely telling you that there is another ending to to their lives?

 

[Gwynneth White]

I am quite against sad endings. Heck, I don't even like bittersweet endings, but sad endings are right out.

I make exceptions for tragedies, because a tragedy isn't the same thing as a sad story. Tragedies are about characters who ruin and destroy themselves as a result of their choices and character flaws. A true tragic ending feels appropriate because it's what the protagonist was heading for all along.

See, I don't necessarily like tragedies, but I can respect them because writing a decent one takes a bit of skill. But if a story is just sad for no particular reason, and the hero dies or the lovers are separated just because life is random and unfair... that just kinda pisses me off! I read books to get away from the harsh realities of life.

Yes Yes Yes. I have just finished the Hunger Games trilogy and if I had to bump into Collins on a street corner I'd thump her one. Hard. And then another for good measure. She took a brilliant story with a dynamic character and turned it into a depressing pity-party. And why when it flew in the face of the basic premise of her characters. I think it is so important to let your character speak.