Self Publishing: Interested?

[Ned Marcus]

With self-publishing it depends how good you are at marketing. How good you want to become.

 

[Moore_Attuned_Ed]

I guess it really depends on your mindset and how you view the pros/cons of each.

As it's already been mentioned, trad publishing takes plenty of time for progress to be seen – you could be waiting from months to years (more likely) to get your book through the chain until a senior editor says 'let's publish this book!'. During which time you could have have your book self-published and be making sales on a book you'd have had more creative control on.

But saying that, going down the self-publishing route means you'd need to fork on way more on advertising, editing, cover design etc. (although even when trad publishing, you'd maybe want to consider at least developmental editing to get it to a stage publishers would accept, which costs a hefty bit of coin).

One thing I don't see mentioned much is selling direct to the reader through your own website. Here's a pretty great discussion on the subject:

It is an hour long, though. But some techniques used by Emily Kimelman are the pay-what-you-can-afford approach, which generated a decent amount of revenue, and including unique offers like merchandise that's exclusive to her website. Could that be an option for you?

Best of luck with it!

 

[Prince of Spires]

I didn't watch the episode (I will at some point), but I think the main issue with selling direct is that it's very hard to scale it unless you put a lot of effort into it.

The thing with other platforms is that they reward you for sales. If you go to one of my novels on Amazon, then at the bottom of the page you'll see a reference "readers of this book also bought", where it shows part 2 in the series. But also if you go to a few other books from other authors you'll find my novel there. Amazon also sends out emails to buyers advertising their next book. The more sales you get, the higher you'll rank in certain results and so on.

All this means that the more I sell on Amazon the more organic sales I'll get.

Selling direct this is a lot harder. I could create a website that attracts a lot of natural traffic. That would take a lot of time and effort though. Otherwise, I'll be reduced to always spending money on ads to drive traffic there. And if I'm doing that, then maybe sending them to a store where they have shopped before makes me more money. People are more likely to buy from Amazon than from some random online website.

What I've heard of other authors is that for most of them, direct sales plateau at a certain level, simply because they can't drive more traffic to their own website easily.

Also, having a website that sells stuff internationally can actually be quite the hassle. Don't underestimate how much work running a succesful webshop is.

 

[Moore_Attuned_Ed]

I didn't watch the episode (I will at some point), but I think the main issue with selling direct is that it's very hard to scale it unless you put a lot of effort into it.

The thing with other platforms is that they reward you for sales. If you go to one of my novels on Amazon, then at the bottom of the page you'll see a reference "readers of this book also bought", where it shows part 2 in the series. But also if you go to a few other books from other authors you'll find my novel there. Amazon also sends out emails to buyers advertising their next book. The more sales you get, the higher you'll rank in certain results and so on.

All this means that the more I sell on Amazon the more organic sales I'll get.

Selling direct this is a lot harder. I could create a website that attracts a lot of natural traffic. That would take a lot of time and effort though. Otherwise, I'll be reduced to always spending money on ads to drive traffic there. And if I'm doing that, then maybe sending them to a store where they have shopped before makes me more money. People are more likely to buy from Amazon than from some random online website.

What I've heard of other authors is that for most of them, direct sales plateau at a certain level, simply because they can't drive more traffic to their own website easily.

Also, having a website that sells stuff internationally can actually be quite the hassle. Don't underestimate how much work running a succesful webshop is.

Oh definitely! I'm aware it'll be a ton of work to make it a successful venture, and I haven't researched too deeply into the ins and outs of it. I just thought it was worth a mention in case it was something the OP hasn't considered and would have been of interest.

 

[JeffML]

From what I've seen most people here on these forums are self-published. I am not, I have a traditional publishing contract. Bear in mind that I am in Sweden, so the process here isn't the same as it would be in the UK or US.

Personally I appreciate the support I get from my publisher. They arrange all the editing, all the typesetting and printing, the cover, all the marketing, getting the book into the stores and onto the shelves (a neccessity in my view if you want visibility) - and they take care of any piracy that might occur. They sort out book signings, interviews etc. For this they take 70% of the wholesale price of the printed book (for e-books they take 45%). I get the rest in royalties - and I get an advance equivalent to the royalties I would get for sales of 50% of the first print run of a new book. For a print run of 1000 copies that isn't much, but once you're established and the first print run of a new book is 4000 or 5000 copies you're starting to talk about some real cash.

The real advantage for me is continuity, I have the same editor for all my books, the same cover designer. It keeps the style and image the same across the books and it makes the editing process very much easier. That's important for me because I am very severely dyslexic.

What a traditional publishing contract does not take away is the need to be visible - you as the author still have to do your bit, so you have to be available for interviews, book signings and talks. And when you do these things you do take a box or two of books along to sell to the audience.

One other advantage of a traditional publishing contract is that you don't have to find the cash for the editing, formatting, marketing etc. The publisher coughs up. The costs mount up fast, and my editor says publishing is really a form of venture capitalism, because the publisher is betting quite a lot of cash that your book will sell enough copies to cover all those costs. Which is why publsihers are so very selective about what books they choose to publish.

Yes, self-publishing means you have almost complete control - and it also means you are taking the full financial risk.

I think you just sold me on going with a traditional publisher. I'm a marketer and I enjoy working for companies but, I don't know why, I really hate doing it for myself.

I am an American though, so, I'm not sure how realistic getting a sweet contract like the one you have it.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

It is more about whether they want you or one of a thousand other manuscripts in their slush pile. Agents admit it (at least some do) books will get turned down by the mood they're in. Agents don't make big bucks (most of them) just like most writers don't make big bucks, and it's an ugly game of politics, politics, politics and trying to pick what's going to trend next while making the right people happy, or at least, not pissing them off. If you think the biz is egalitarian and a meritocracy, I've chatted with enough ex-publishers and agents to know better,

I played the screenwriting game enough to know one thing: Connections rule. Oh sure, there are always tales of screenplays getting picked up out of the nether, but most of the business is insider trading. Traditional publishing in the US is much the same, with one major EXCEPT, it's easier to get your foot in the door with agents and publishers at conventions and way more books are published than movies. Trouble is, there are way more people writing books than movies and they've been rubbing elbows for years.

My rule of thumb is probably a bit harsh: I submit to three top agents, wait to see if any want to dance, and if they don't, I push the Publish Button, LOL.

Shoot for the brass ring as much as you like, but don't fear to be your own boss. Indie can be a lot of fun for those crazy enough to enjoy it, heh heh.

I think you just sold me on going with a traditional publisher. I'm a marketer and I enjoy working for companies but, I don't know why, I really hate doing it for myself.

I am an American though, so, I'm not sure how realistic getting a sweet contract like the one you have it.

 

[Finchbearer]

I think you have to be a bit crazy to go indie after looking at the two avenues and the kind of books that authors publish independently compared to those who are read published, but, the odds aren’t with you for read publishing and I can sense that maybe some of those who have gone indie have tried that avenue e have maybe not had good experiences with it.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I think you have to be a bit crazy to try to be an author. That goes for both indie and trad.

That said, in my opinion, if you are publishing in English, there is less and less reason to go with traditional publishers each passing day. The exception probably is if you can somehow land a large advance. Otherwise there are plenty of tales where authors pay for editors before getting accepted to trad publishers, and of authors having to do their own marketing even though they're traditionally published.

If you want a (biased) view of why you should never publish traditionally, read Kristine Kathryn Rusch blog. She's been in the game a very long time, so she knows what she writes about. Though she does have a very strong bias.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Hybrid is the ideal, IMO. If you can build an indie audience and then land the trad contract to help expand your market, or vice versa, then you can pick and choose the level of control you want.

I've turned down agents and small publishers that I don't want to work with. I suspect I could call one little publishing house today and sign with them tomorrow, but at this juncture it'd take a sweet deal with a Big Five and an agent at a big agency to keep me away from Indie.

Two truths:

One, no Indie author goes into publishing their work expecting or hoping for staring at 2 sales in a month and sub 100 KENP page reads... But a version of that is where most Indies end up.

Two, no author who lands an agent and Big Five Publisher expects to celebrate their $5000 up front only to find themselves staring at the mail box waiting for a second check that never comes because their book never earns above that $5000 royalty mark... But a version of that is where most Trad authors end up.

So, having to be a bit crazy is the Right Answer, heh heh.

I think you have to be a bit crazy to try to be an author. That goes for both indie and trad.

That said, in my opinion, if you are publishing in English, there is less and less reason to go with traditional publishers each passing day. The exception probably is if you can somehow land a large advance. Otherwise there are plenty of tales where authors pay for editors before getting accepted to trad publishers, and of authors having to do their own marketing even though they're traditionally published.

If you want a (biased) view of why you should never publish traditionally, read Kristine Kathryn Rusch blog. She's been in the game a very long time, so she knows what she writes about. Though she does have a very strong bias.

 

[Finchbearer]

I feel like if you take out the money equation then trad publishing is a no brainer, given that you aren’t scammed into paying anything to get published, should be on merit. Bit of self promotion on social media would be fine.

Those who indie publish are ALL IN, because I suppose you can’t be half in and expect any success.

 

[Ned Marcus]

I feel like if you take out the money equation then trad publishing is a no brainer, given that you aren’t scammed into paying anything to get published, should be on merit. Bit of self promotion on social media would be fine.

Those who indie publish are ALL IN, because I suppose you can’t be half in and expect any success.

If you're scammed into paying anything by going indie, then you're doing it wrong. The only money you may need to pay is for editing, covers, and advertising. Perhaps a few other services, too.

I'm sure it helps to be crazy whether you go indie or trad. So far, I've been indie with my novels (I never thought about trad publishing) and trad with my short stories (which I've been having more success selling to magazines recently).

 

[Demesnedenoir]

No brainer? No. You sign, you publish, they own your rights. Lots of authors end up buying rights back. Nothing is so simple, it's all down to personal preference and luck of the draw. Bit of promotion with social media for trad? Unless you land a contract via a bidding war to drive up your red ink at the publisher, you better count on advertising like an Indie these days.

Trad is not a pay to publish deal. Neither is Indie. So, if you're scammed you're scammed, or you might call it old-school self publishing, heh heh.

I feel like if you take out the money equation then trad publishing is a no brainer, given that you aren’t scammed into paying anything to get published, should be on merit. Bit of self promotion on social media would be fine.

Those who indie publish are ALL IN, because I suppose you can’t be half in and expect any success.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I agree with Demesnedenoir . When you sign a trad contract, you're signing away all rights for life +70 years. And after that initial check you're not very likely to see any more money. And your book will likely be out of print (physical) after a few months, and the ebook will languish in the depths of Amazon. And assume you have to do all the marketing for you book, until you get big enough to be worth the publisher's attention.

It's not true that you have to be all in when you're Indie. Plenty of people are hybrid authors. The biggest ones are actually Brandon Sanderson (he's indie publishing his secret novels), and J.K. Rowling (who retained the ebook rights for Harry Potter). However, what you mainly see is that it's trad authors who do a bit of indie publishing. And you don't hear much about all the small fish who try. Succesful indie authors have no reason to use a trad publisher. Why would they? They have a system in place that makes them money, and they earn more per book sale than when publishing with a trad publisher. Why give away rights to your book to make less money?

Both sides are hard by the way. If it was easy everyone would do it... But once you get the ball roling, the fixed costs of indie publishing aren't that high. A lot lower than most businesses you can start. And cover and editing are a 1-time thing. Though I suppose you refresh covers every now and then.

 

[Mad Swede]

I agree with Demesnedenoir . When you sign a trad contract, you're signing away all rights for life +70 years.

What a load of rubbish. You always retain copyright. The period you sell the publishing rights for is up to you and your agent (if you have one), and this is one of the things you negotiate with the publisher before you sign the contract. The rights you sell are also up to you, and a publishing deal should be for the book, the formats it will be published in (eg hardback, paperback, e-book, audio book), the region in which you are selling those rights (eg North America, Europe, the Nordic countries or whatever) and nothing else. The publisher will probably want an option on your next book, at least if they think you're any good.

A book is out of print only when you can no longer a buy a new physical copy of the book. If your book does well then it will be reprinted, as this is a way for the publisher to make more money (the galleys are already set up and all the editing is done, they just need to print and bind the book). One of the things you should discuss with the publisher before signing the contract is the size of the first print run as this will give an indication of how much the publisher believes in you. A large first print run means they have confidence that they'll sell them all and that you are worth a bit of marketing (which means the book is likely to earn out your advance and that you'll be getting royalties), a small print run means they're not sure and that you'll be doing quite a bit of marketing leg work yourself (and that you won't get much if any advance).

 

[Finchbearer]

An excerpt from a Sarah J Maas interview:

For readers who are self-publishing their work, what would you say are the advantages and disadvantages facing them?

Well there’s a difference between posting on FictionPress and self-publishing. I think FP is a great place for aspiring writers to get feedback and have fun—so long as you’re careful about protecting your story from would-be plagiarists. I’m sure there are tons of advantages to self-publishing (meaning, putting the work up for sale), but you’re also your own publisher, which seems like a ton of work to me, and it’s unlikely you’ll ever see your own novel in a bookstore. So I’ll always recommend traditional publishing—it’s a harder and longer road, but absolutely worth it.

Just found this interesting, considering I always thought indie would be the longer harder road.

 

[pmmg]

An excerpt from a Sarah J Maas interview:

For readers who are self-publishing their work, what would you say are the advantages and disadvantages facing them?

Well there’s a difference between posting on FictionPress and self-publishing. I think FP is a great place for aspiring writers to get feedback and have fun—so long as you’re careful about protecting your story from would-be plagiarists. I’m sure there are tons of advantages to self-publishing (meaning, putting the work up for sale), but you’re also your own publisher, which seems like a ton of work to me, and it’s unlikely you’ll ever see your own novel in a bookstore. So I’ll always recommend traditional publishing—it’s a harder and longer road, but absolutely worth it.

Just found this interesting, considering I always thought indie would be the longer harder road.

I wish she would elaborate on that.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

If the publisher owns the right to selling your book, then they effectively own the book. This is why quite a few writers end up buying back the rights to their books in order to retake control. Keeping audio rights is the new fight, similar to the old fight of keeping movie rights. One Indie turned Hybrid was looking at turning down 6 figures in the fight to keep their Audio rights on a series.

Longer, harder road. It depends on what aspect you're looking at. Signing an agent, finding a publisher, and running through all the edits does take longer if it's possible at all. Sign to publish can take two years. Either can be a quick road to success (with luck) but more than likely they both take time to make a living.

Seeing your book in a bookstore is the perk of trad? One: Indie books do end up in bookstores and libraries. Two: So what? That feels like an ego driven answer, which I totally understand, as I get a little rush every time I find my books in a library, or Target.com carrying my titles, or listed in a college text book buy back, or being sold in Nigeria. But in the end success is the key, and brick and mortar doesn't drive success like it used to.

 

[Mad Swede]

If the publisher owns the right to selling your book, then they effectively own the book. This is why quite a few writers end up buying back the rights to their books in order to retake control. Keeping audio rights is the new fight, similar to the old fight of keeping movie rights. One Indie turned Hybrid was looking at turning down 6 figures in the fight to keep their Audio rights on a series.

Oh please. You, the author, always own your book and the copyright to it. You sell publishing rights. Your agent should have your interests at heart when they sell in the book to a publisher. Your job is to make sure you know what you want to sell in the way of rights and then give a clear directive to your agent. If you haven't got an agent then make sure you have a good lawyer who knows contract law.

Always remember that you decide what rights you want to sell and for how long. Sure, the publisher may want more rights for longer than you want to sell. At that point you have to decide what you can compromise on and how much you want to compromise. That means asking questions. It also means accepting the risk that the publisher will walk away if you are too stubborn.

Caveat venditor.

Longer, harder road. It depends on what aspect you're looking at. Signing an agent, finding a publisher, and running through all the edits does take longer if it's possible at all. Sign to publish can take two years. Either can be a quick road to success (with luck) but more than likely they both take time to make a living.

Of course getting a book published takes time. For those of us with traditional publishing contracts it takes time. It takes time even if you do it all yourself. Time to edit. Time to set for print. Time to print. Time to do interviews, time to sign books. Time to prepare and give talks. Time to write the next book. No-one has ever said it was an easy life.

Some authors make the best seller lists worldwide. Some authors (even self published ones) win prizes. Most don't. Most of us don't even earn enough to write for a living.

Seeing your book in a bookstore is the perk of trad? One: Indie books do end up in bookstores and libraries. Two: So what? That feels like an ego driven answer, which I totally understand, as I get a little rush every time I find my books in a library, or Target.com carrying my titles, or listed in a college text book buy back, or being sold in Nigeria. But in the end success is the key, and brick and mortar doesn't drive success like it used to.

Given that most authors don't earn enough to make a living from their writing no matter how their books are published the question is why we do it and what we mean by success. I don't write for a living - and I don't need to. I write for fun, because I enjoy it. Having a publishing contract is good, seeing the books out on the shelves is satisfying and having readers say how much they like the books is a real ego boost. But it isn't why I started writing.

 

[pmmg]

Oh please. You, the author, always own your book and the copyright to it.

That is not true. There are many ways copyright may come to belong to the publisher. It is something you would have to negotiate, and if you are not careful, you may lose it.

Who Owns the Copyright to Published Works?

One very well known incident of losing rights is Sylvester Stallone and his Rocky creation.
Why Sylvester Stallone Doesn't Have any 'Rocky' Ownership

 

[Demesnedenoir]

If you sell publishing rights, you can't run around publishing it, can you? They'd come after you. Do they "own" everything? Not techincally, but in effect, they own part of it... the publishing rights. That's why you sell the rights country by country. And again, that's why many writers end up buying back their rights to regain control and to take their books away from the OOP pile.

Oh please. You, the author, always own your book and the copyright to it. You sell publishing rights. Your agent should have your interests at heart when they sell in the book to a publisher. Your job is to make sure you know what you want to sell in the way of rights and then give a clear directive to your agent. If you haven't got an agent then make sure you have a good lawyer who knows contract law.

Always remember that you decide what rights you want to sell and for how long. Sure, the publisher may want more rights for longer than you want to sell. At that point you have to decide what you can compromise on and how much you want to compromise. That means asking questions. It also means accepting the risk that the publisher will walk away if you are too stubborn.

Caveat venditor.

I was merely speculating on what Hobb might mean. Me, I don't even care about awards outside of they can be used to get my books in front of other readers. Are they nice? Sure. For me, the whole thing is fun, and whatever helps reach more readers (not just for money, but because I want to touch the minds of as many people as possible—ooo, that sounds icky) is the goal. Once I wrote a book that found an audience, growing the audience became the goal. In the end, money would be the side effect. I might spend everything I earned to keep reaching more people, LMAO. Who knows. Well, money would also give me the time to finish all the books I have planned... full-time life + writing, that will be a challenge.

Of course getting a book published takes time. For those of us with traditional publishing contracts it takes time. It takes time even if you do it all yourself. Time to edit. Time to set for print. Time to print. Time to do interviews, time to sign books. Time to prepare and give talks. Time to write the next book. No-one has ever said it was an easy life.

Some authors make the best seller lists worldwide. Some authors (even self published ones) win prizes. Most don't. Most of us don't even earn enough to write for a living.

Given that most authors don't earn enough to make a living from their writing no matter how their books are published the question is why we do it and what we mean by success. I don't write for a living - and I don't need to. I write for fun, because I enjoy it. Having a publishing contract is good, seeing the books out on the shelves is satisfying and having readers say how much they like the books is a real ego boost. But it isn't why I started writing.