Sexually explicit in fantasy - yay or nay?

[Fyle]

Whether explicit sex should be included or not depends on the quality of said scene.

Yes. Which can be relevant, but slightly off track. Quality of the writing does not necessarily have to do with inclusion.

* Thanks Rei! I was actually a half-ninja for 4 years in a comic strip that featured myself as the MC. It ran in New York city as charity for the homeless. I dare not call my self a full ninja...

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

Fyle you asked

Why is a natural part of life "sacred"?

I believe I may have an answer for you. Giya, correct me if I am wrong, is likely a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am basing this off of the sacred statements and location. I think it's a safe enough assumption for now. However, if I am wrong I apologize. With that said I am going to try and explain the sacred belief of sex, which is something I share.

Sex according to the LDS faith is a complicated thing. It is meant to be between a married couple. See The Family: A Proclamation to the World. It is meant for procreation. The Family: A Proclamation to the World. And to bring a couple together. See Genesis 2:24. Further, the power of procreation is a part of God's plan for all of humanity.

This plan for humanity is called the plan of salvation and it is the only means by which us, as God's children, can return to him. Part of this plan is in attaining a body. For without a body we would become like the Devil himself. The Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 9:8. God has decided to give people the power, and the duty, of procreation. Genesis 9:1. He has given to the human race the power to create a sentient race capable of becoming like God. This is one reason why sex is sacred.

Another reason is that sex represents, or ideally should represent, a perfect unity of lives, hopes, dreams, and everything that the couple engaging in the act is. The Ensign (a Mormon religious periodical) Strengthening the Family: The Sacred Powers of Procreation, June 2005. Sex is a physical symbol of that union. It is a perversion of this union to participate in the act and to lack the state of mind necessary to fully consummate the union. As such, we are perverting a gift of God.

Last, sex for sex's sake is trivialization of the soul. According to Mormon doctrine a soul is the combination of body and spirit. See D&C 88:15. This gift of a soul is something created by the act of sex. To have sex willy nilly is a trivialization of the process of creation and thus a trivialization of the soul, which is the second greatest gift God has given next to the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

For these reasons Mormon's consider sex to be sacred. However this does not answer the underlying question of why are sacred things not often shown. This goes to Jesus' admonition to "not cast your pearls before swine." Matthew 7:6. Sex is sacred and should not be perverted. By showing it explicitly it diminishes that sacredness. Eventually enough of it will mar the act and make it something base, rather than something sacred. In order to avoid that we do not depict sex. We may discuss it but do not get into the specifics of it.

Sorry for the epistle. Here is the TL;DR version. Sex is sacred because it is part of creating the soul. The soul is necessary to return to God and enter heaven. As such, the act of sex is something sacred. Mormons do not generally depict sacred things explicitly. They are discussed but rarely shown in large part to keep the sacredness of the activity.

As an endnote, I would like to add this is my interpretation of my religion's doctrine. This is not official Mormon doctrine. If there are discrepancies with what is in scripture that is by my own doing. Anyways I hope this helps. Again, Giya if you are not Mormon and I missed my guess I apologize. Fyle, does this answer your question?

 

[Fyle]

Fyle you asked

I believe I may have an answer for you. Giya, correct me if I am wrong, is likely a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am basing this off of the sacred statements and location. I think it's a safe enough assumption for now. However, if I am wrong I apologize. With that said I am going to try and explain the sacred belief of sex, which is something I share.

I understand this very well, but usually when religion comes up the thread gets closed. Internet forums are where these ideas should be discussed and shot down when they make little sense. Instead, folk like me are labeled "bad" or "wrong" for bringing the topic up... too bad the internet is becoming politically controlled like television. But here goes since you said it first lol.

Religious beliefs are not a logical reason to not include sex in a story. That is a hard to swallow pill that most people are not ready to talk about - especially not ready to talk about in a civilized manner. Religious belief is also why violence is so widely accepted and not shunned on in fantasy (especially in the States) when something like sex is. I cannot say sex is "harmless" due to the possible spread of STDs, but it doesn't take a biologist to tell you sex is A LOT less harmful than violence.

So, without getting into religious beliefs, can holding sex sacred be explained ?

Ideas should have no limits - especially with something like writing where there are little to no budget restrictions in world creation and cast of characters!

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

...usually when religion comes up the thread gets closed.

Religion is an acceptable topic for Mythic Scribes. However, the conversation is required to remain respectful of other's beliefs, tactful, and free of judgment or attack.

Breaking that understanding is what causes threads to close.

 

[X Equestris]

I understand this very well, but usually when religion comes up the thread gets closed. Internet forums are where these ideas should be discussed and shot down when they make little sense. Instead, folk like me are labeled "bad" or "wrong" for bringing the topic up... too bad the internet is becoming politically controlled like television. But here goes since you said it first lol.

Religious beliefs are not a logical reason to not include sex in a story. That is a hard to swallow pill that most people are not ready to talk about - especially not ready to talk about in a civilized manner. Religious belief is also why violence is so widely accepted and not shunned on in fantasy (especially in the States) when something like sex is. I cannot say sex is "harmless" due to the possible spread of STDs, but it doesn't take a biologist to tell you sex is A LOT less harmful than violence.

So, without getting into religious beliefs, can holding sex sacred be explained ?

Ideas should have no limits - especially with something like writing where there are little to no budget restrictions in world creation and cast of characters!

Religious beliefs are a perfectly valid reason to choose not to include a sex scene. It is indeed perfectly logical not to include something that conflicts with your personal beliefs. If you cannot see that, that is your own fault, but don't claim someone doesn't have a logical reason when they do.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Religious beliefs are a perfectly valid reason to choose not to include a sex scene. It is indeed perfectly logical not to include something that conflicts with your personal beliefs. If you cannot see that, that is your own fault, but don't claim someone doesn't have a logical reason when they do.

I have to agree. That's the author's prerogative and discretion.

The way I see it, it comes down to simple taste... likes and dislikes.

Why do I write the type of stories I do? Because they're what I'd want to read. There are others just like me out there that would enjoy the same. That is true for any choice we make in our writing.

Though sex in stories doesn't bother me in the least, and I consider it a natural part of life, I definitely think there is a market for stories that treat sex differently.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

So, without getting into religious beliefs, can holding sex sacred be explained ?

In short, no. Sacredness is generally tied to religious belief. I think it would be a task far beyond my capabilities to explain why sex is sacred without getting into my personal beliefs.

However, I would like to make a comparison to violence. Murder is a terrible sin according to most religious beliefs and interpretations thereof. Yet violence is generally acceptable. But, violence is not itself murder. Murder is the intentional killing of another with malice aforethought. (This may not be the religious definition but I think it's close enough) Killing another does not mean the killer did so with malice aforethought or intentionally. As such, so far as I can tell, glorifying murder is religiously problematic. But having violence in a story is not problematic if the murderers are not glorified and the defenders do not support violence as the only solution, just the last one.

Similarly, sex is not itself bad. Wanton sex is. Glorifying wanton sex is problematic. Wanton sex and its glorification is problematic as explained above. So, to avoid that I, and others, err on the side of caution and simply do not have explicit sex.

 

[Fyle]

Religious beliefs are a perfectly valid reason to choose not to include a sex scene. It is indeed perfectly logical not to include something that conflicts with your personal beliefs. If you cannot see that, that is your own fault, but don't claim someone doesn't have a logical reason when they do.

Please explain why excluding a sex scene due to religious beliefs is logical rather than telling me what you think.

I think to create realism, show stronger relationships between characters, possibly show proof of conception or simply add a little spice and variety to the writing sex should be considered.

Why should it not be considered ? Make me see your point of view, don't tell me its "my fault" if I cannot. That's what writing is about, my friend.

Thank you Allen Smith for clearing that up. I will of course stay respectful!

 

[BronzeOracle]

Whether explicit sex should be included or not depends on the quality of said scene. If it adds nothing or decreases the quality, then it should not be in. If it is well written, then it should be in. Same as any other sort of scene. Simple.

I think it depends on the quality of the scene, its need/power within the story and also the intended audience. A lot of people don't like reading explicit sex but a lot of people do too. Almost all epic fantasy I have read has had a 'closed door' approach to sex, which I found enough for me even though I consider myself a fairly sexual person. There are some notable exceptions but even they don't go into the detail of today's erotic fiction. I have to confess I haven't read a lot of recent fantasy (say last 5-10 years) so things could be changing and major successes like ASOFAI and the GOT TV series could well influence the genre.

I am undecided as to including explicit sex in my novel as I am still writing it, but at this stage I don't think so. I'm comfortable that closed door references to sex are enough and there is plenty of room for strong character relationships without being explicit. Also I wouldn't want to alienate readers, as I think there are more who would be turned off by it then those who would read it more because it was there - then again I could be wrong on this.

I think there have been some valuable mentions in this thread about the inclusion of violence. Sex and violence both pose issues for society and our own consciousness I think. I do agree that violence is more acceptable by the mainstream than sex yet it wreaks incredible trauma. This is something I will need to put more thought into, as my novel does have several violent scenes and I am wondering how shocking to make them.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Please explain why excluding a sex scene due to religious beliefs is logical rather than telling me what you think.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I have a hard time understanding why that needs explained. The logic seems readily apparent to me.

I think that's why there's a disconnect here. The argument seems crystal clear in its logic to the others... The religious beliefs of the author are intrinsic in the work they produce. That's a choice of style, nothing more.

 

[X Equestris]

Please explain why excluding a sex scene due to religious beliefs is logical rather than telling me what you think.

I think to create realism, show stronger relationships between characters, possibly show proof of conception or simply add a little spice and variety to the writing sex should be considered.

Why should it not be considered ? Make me see your point of view, don't tell me its "my fault" if I cannot. That's what writing is about, my friend.

Thank you Allen Smith for clearing that up. I will of course stay respectful!

Asking a religious person to portray sex in a willy-nilly manner is like asking Ayn Rand to portray Collectivism in a positive light, if that analogy makes it clearer. It is an idea that opposes who and what you are.

 

[Fyle]

I have to agree. That's the author's prerogative and discretion.

The way I see it, it comes down to simple taste... likes and dislikes.

I seek logical answers.

I don't like grapefruit, why? I can leave it at that but...

I don't like the sour acidic taste, the texture of the skin or the juicyness. We are here as writers for reasons and keep discussions strong, the discussion is the heart of a forum and needs sitmulation.

You don't like sex in novels? Please tell me why, not "just because". Because of religious beliefs is fine, if you can explain in detail. Especailly on a forum about writing! I expect more that a few lines telling me why I am wrong rather than showing me why I am wrong

 

[Chessie]

Fyle, maybe I can answer that for you (and hopefully this isn't too off topic). I don't know what X Equestris's spiritual beliefs are, but as a Christian, I understand where he's (or she) is coming from. Writing about sex is a personal preference but when you also add in spiritual beliefs there is a higher power being honored in your work. Writing about sex doesn't neccessarily honor that higher power. I don't want to get too deep into religion/spirituality here so feel free to engage in a private discussion with me about this if you like and I can explain it in further detail without derailing the thread.

There are several reasons why I personally don't write explicit sex scenes but my work isn't void of sexuality either. Its typically an important part of character development for me. But I also think sex and sexuality are slightly separate things.

 

[Fyle]

Fyle, maybe I can answer that for you (and hopefully this isn't too off topic). I don't know what X Equestris's spiritual beliefs are, but as a Christian, I understand where he's (or she) is coming from. Writing about sex is a personal preference but when you also add in spiritual beliefs there is a higher power being honored in your work. Writing about sex doesn't neccessarily honor that higher power. I don't want to get too deep into religion/spirituality here so feel free to engage in a private discussion with me about this if you like and I can explain it in further detail without derailing the thread.

There are several reasons why I personally don't write explicit sex scenes but my work isn't void of sexuality either. Its typically an important part of character development for me. But I also think sex and sexuality are slightly separate things.

I understand it is a personal preference. Technically, everything is a personal preference.

I am asking for an explanation of the personal preference that I could perhaps relate to. A point of view everyone can relate to. If your point of view can only be made clear to a select group of individuals who share the same belief, than it has a shaky foundation.

Writing and expressing yourself is about making other understand your point of view. If you have a source censoring your point of view, at least explain the reasons to some degree of detail. If you can't, you may as well just answer with the OP's requested "yay or nay." So... make me understand where you are coming from... that's the job of a writer.

 

[Feo Takahari]

To get a bit personal, I also view sex as sacred to some degree, and that's a big part of why I write about sex. I read so many stories that portray sex as this dark, possessive thing where one person dominates and controls another, and I sometimes find stories where sex is part of a mutual and equal bond, and I feel like I want to see and create more representation of the latter. I think there's a lot of value in trying to convey what feels beautiful and incredible to you.

 

[Chessie]

I am asking for an explanation of the personal preference that I could perhaps relate to. A point of view everyone can relate to.

Hm. I'm not sure if this is possible. Not everyone can agree on everything, and not everyone can relate to everything. Especially when it comes to spirituality/religion which is a soul-centered experience and so unless you have a specific faith in your life then you're probably not going to understand where another person of faith/or lack thereof is coming from (and I even mean this for people of faith that differ in what they worship).

I'll give it a shot though. The reasons why I don't write sex: its freaking hard to write about. I have written sex scenes before and they just--I don't like writing them because it never comes out with a flow for me (pun intended). I don't like to alienate readers by having graphic sex scenes in my stories. Some people don't mind reading them, some people do. Why alienate readers who could become potential fans when I can have an equally strong story and character development without graphic sex? I like to respect the minds of others who may have an issue with this so I simply just don't do it.

It has nothing to do with a source censoring me. No one is censoring me. I am able to express myself just fine without needing to be exceedingly graphic with language, violence, or sex in my stories. I've been doing this long enough that I can maneuver language to get my point across. It is my artistic taste more than anything. I think about sweeping epics like "Gone With The Wind" or "Jayne Eyre" or "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" that have sexuality but little sex scenes. That's the artistic style I prefer (not that my narrative is anywhere near as good as those novels and sorry to not use fantasy novel examples).

Where I'm coming from if that makes sense.

EDIT: I wanted to add that I do think sex is important in stories. We're writing about real people and real people have sex. I don't think the characters in my WIP would have the relationship they do without being physical. That aspect of their relationship is mentioned in the story several times...but its not detailed. Its there because its part of what keeps the protagonist stuck to the antagonist for lack of a better way to describe it. The story wouldn't really be the same without it.

 

[Fyle]

I'll give it a shot though. The reasons why I don't write sex: its freaking hard to write about. I have written sex scenes before and they just--I don't like writing them because it never comes out with a flow for me (pun intended). I don't like to alienate readers by having graphic sex scenes in my stories. Some people don't mind reading them, some people do. Why alienate readers who could become potential fans when I can have an equally strong story and character development without graphic sex? I like to respect the minds of others who may have an issue with this so I simply just don't do it.

It has nothing to do with a source censoring me. No one is censoring me. I am able to express myself just fine without needing to be exceedingly graphic with language, violence, or sex in my stories. I've been doing this long enough that I can maneuver language to get my point across. It is my artistic taste more than anything. I think about sweeping epics like "Gone With The Wind" or "Jayne Eyre" or "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" that have sexuality but little sex scenes. That's the artistic style I prefer (not that my narrative is anywhere near as good as those novels and sorry to not use fantasy novel examples).

Where I'm coming from if that makes sense.

That makes a big difference and has nothing to do with religious beliefs. The point you make about Gone with the Wind is "good."
Altough with movies, by facial expression and body language it is easier to hint at it than with writing (I don't know if the other two are books or movies... so I am at a loss to say in those cases, but I will trust you that they imply sex without showing it if they are books).

The point I am trying to make indirectly (and this is kind of a different thread) but... I think religious beliefs have turned people off to sex more than "sex" has turned people off to sex. It is hard for me to fathom, in a world without religion, people would start calling sex offensive or be such a turn off.

The reason is that nobody (or I think very few of us who read this genre) is put off by "violence", which is worse than sex by any stretch of the imagination, is because, religious people (of major faiths) accept violence in there stories. As the Bible is one of the most violent books ever written. Even Jesus says you can beat a slave so long as their eyes don't fall out of their socket.

But! Oh no! A sex scene offends me... hmmm... this seems unnatural or should I say learned logic. As an organism that reproduces through sex, you should not be turned off or offended by a short sex scene (I am talking about short inserts, not a high volume of sex, that gets disruptive to the plot)

Stop and think of the word "offend" for a moment. How can a scene about what we must do to survive "offend" anyone in the same way as say being insulted directly by someone, being stolen from etc.

But to your credit, a much better answer that came from you, and nowhere else.

 

[Philip Overby]

I'll add to what Chesterama said. I find sex difficult to write...in fantasy. I've written it in other stories before, but my fantasy is typically violent, some may consider hyper-violent, so that's the path I've chosen. It's also considered somewhat silly. In a story with a crazed pixie and bloody, ghostly unicorn, I don't see there being a spot for me to put sex in there. On the other hand, if I'm writing non-fantasy work, sex scenes come a lot easier for me. Even then I choose not to write them explicitly. But in some of my more serious work I don't always choose to show violence explicitly either. Sometimes what you don't see in fiction can make it even more powerful.

For example, a scene depicting a husband and wife consummating their marriage after waiting for years might be considered by some a sweet moment. Showing it explicitly may change the tone.

I remember when learning about Oedipus and he finds out what he did (I'll assume most everyone knows the story), he stabs his eyes with golden needles or something. It's an extremely violent act, but it's not shown. We only see Oedipus later when he's already blind. I remember thinking that was a powerful scene for me.

So I guess when I approach sex, I often won't write "this happened, then this happened, then this happened." I like to write scenes that show what happened before or after. That's a personal choice that has little to do with any outside influences.

 

[Fyle]

Ya, explicit sex and just sex are different.

My argument is more about 'sex'

There is never a time to got very graphic logically. As a reference point, I would say not further than Game of Throned goes - the book, not the show.

The way he describes Dany and Carl Drogos sex isnt exactly explicit... but detailed enough for people to complain. He really touched on a beautiful moment with it that stuck. Yes, it was the actual act, but it was a masterful metaphor that elevated it beyond the level of being sex.


When something is written so well, does the content really matter？

 

[BronzeOracle]

I agree with you Fyle on society's taste for violence (particularly in Hollywood films) versus aversion to sex (in European movies it seems the opposite, or perhaps its just their version of CGI to draw audiences) - but I don't think religion can be blamed for it all. There is violence in all societies - tribal societies can be very brutal too, its not just larger states - and the watching of violence for pleasure I think goes beyond religious influence.

Was the Colosseum games, one of the earliest documented blood sports, really influenced by Christianity or Judaism?? Were the public executions and tortures in large states that had religion really due to religion or instead a ruling class that wanted their subjects to see justice done, spread fear at insubordination against their power, and perhaps give some relief/diversion from the brutality of their own lives and so encourage social stability and the status quo. My guess is its the ruling elites, not religious doctrine.