What POD Would I Need to Make the European “Flag Samurais” a Reality?

[Jdailey1991]

In honor of the much-delayed Tokyo Olympics, Japanese artists (I've never found their names) have drawn the flags of all the nations personified as anime warriors. For this question, let's focus on the following nations:



United Kingdom of Great Britain



Italy



Finland



Sweden



Spain



Belgium



France



Germany



Switzerland



Norway



Netherlands



Russia



Denmark

In our timeline, the kinds of clothing and the types of weapons and armors presented in the images are distinctively Japanese. But in an alternate history timeline, they are common among all the imperial, royal and noble ranks of medieval Europe. Which raises the question--what point of departure would I need to make this scenario a reality?

 

[skip.knox]

世界国旗SAMURAI-WORLDFLAGS- appears to be the source for those images. Best would be to go to the source and ask there.

 

[Jdailey1991]

世界国旗SAMURAI-WORLDFLAGS- appears to be the source for those images. Best would be to go to the source and ask there.

They specialize in alternate history?

 

[skip.knox]

No. Read their site; they're pretty clear about what they're doing. I think it is both admirable and inspiring. And shows marvelous talent.

(the site provides a button for translating from the default Japanese)

 

[Jdailey1991]

Um...it still doesn't answer the question.

 

[skip.knox]

I'm suggesting you go find the answer for yourself rather than asking me to find it for you. That way, you will be able to ask the host site any follow-up questions that might occur to you. Also, spending even a minute there will tell you what they specialize in.

 

[Jdailey1991]

I asked an alternate history question, and what you gave me completely ignores that. I asked on what point of departure in our history would allow medieval Europeans to have Japanese-style clothes and weapons, and instead of answering that question, you suggested that I go to that site. And you just said it yourself, they don't do alternate history, so what's the point?

 

[Devor]

Japan and Western Europe are pretty disconnected. I'm not sure there is a realistic AU path in world history where Japan would have that much influence over Western Europe.

 

[Devor]

Traditional Japanese culture peaked because they were self-isolating while the rest of the world was dealing with guns. So one possibility might be removing guns from the equation, and then creating a situation where European warfare ran itself into the ground, only for Japan to (somehow) rekindle the idea of a noble culture........... I mean, I don't know, it's a stretch, but something like that.

 

[Queshire]

Some quick wiki walking shows that the colorful nature of Japanese armor compared to western is the result of lacquer to protect the armor against the weather. Japan also has poor quality metal which affected the design of their swords. It took a lot more work and folding the metal a lot to work out the impurities.

I'm not qualified to say what practical descisions and historical factors lead to the aesthetic developing as it does.

Ancient Japan borrowed a lot of cultural elements from Ancient China, though this predates the rise of Shoguns and the heyday of Samurai. Perhaps something similar could spread west? I would expect readers to buy it, but considering the time involved, distance between Europe and Japan and differing factors it wouldn't realistically develop the same.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

There would have to have been lots of contact between Japan and Western Europe, and the balance of power would probably have to have been tilted in favor of the Japanese. When people adopt foreign fashions, they usually adopt them from countries they see as more worthy - cooler, really - than their own. That usually means the more powerful country's fashions get adopted by the citizens of countries that look up to them.

What if Japan built an empire a millennium or two ago and colonized Europe? Then you might see such a scenario.

Another version of alternative history could have the trade going the other way: samurai fashions originated in Western Europe and were adopted by the Japanese under European influence.

Either way, the isolationist policy Japan held for centuries would have to have not existed.

 

[skip.knox]

I apologize. I misread the subject line as Print On Demand, whereas you meant Point Of Departure. Now that I understand the question more correctly, all I can say is: since it's alternative history, you get to choose the alternative. You can make the point of departure anywhere you wish. The trick is to write a story that sells your idea.

 

[Jdailey1991]

World comes before history, and history comes before story. That's the order of reality, and that's the order worldbuilders should strive for. Mix them out of order even in the slightest and that takes away any believability.

 

[Miles Lacey]

History records that hurricanes thwarted attempts by the Mongols to invade Japan. You could have the Mongol invasion of Japan being successful. The Mongols weren't just great warriors but also great traders so a successful Mongol invasion of Japan may very well have resulted in Japanese imperial fashions being traded through the Empire and beyond. The rarity of such attire would've made them highly sought after within the various ruling dynasties of Europe.

Another point of departure is that Japan decides not to embark upon a policy of isolationism between the sixteenth and nineteenth centuries. This allows European traders, especially the Portuguese, to become more firmly established in Japan. Japanese imperial fashions make their way back to Europe where they become very popular among the European ruling families because they are so rare.

 

[FifthView]

all I can say is: since it's alternative history, you get to choose the alternative. You can make the point of departure anywhere you wish. The trick is to write a story that sells your idea.

World comes before history, and history comes before story. That's the order of reality, and that's the order worldbuilders should strive for. Mix them out of order even in the slightest and that takes away any believability.

Forgive me for possibly hijacking the conversation...but these two approaches come close to summarizing an issue I've considered bringing up many times on this forum. Heck, I've probably brought it up already here and there. I should probably start a brand new thread instead of hijacking this thread.

But maybe some part belongs here? In short, I agree with skip.knox. The fantastic in fantasy is the creation of unexpected and seemingly impossible things—impossible to our real world—and in order to accomplish this, those unexpected and seemingly impossible things need to be given reason and order. They need to seem like real things even if we know they are not real to our world. So the fantastic is the starting point, and the supporting structure is designed afterward. Not the other way around.

Why not the other way around? Simple. The real world developed as it developed. In a forward, linear fashion. Starting with the real world will never produce results other than the results that have already been produced. Heck, even the term "point of departure" is a signal that some unreal thing must first be created and inserted into the scheme to create a different outcome than what we've seen in our very real world.

But otoh, World--->History--->Story---> may be how the reader experiences it. I understand the desire to make the chain of causation seem like this. It must feel like a logical progression, at least to some extent*, so It's a good question. But the author is outside that time loop, heh.

*Okay, a caveat. Technically, writers of fantasy don't absolutely need to explain how such non-real things have become a reality. A little mystery or a lot of mystery can do much good. Do we need to know how Hogwarts could possibly have come into existence? No. I realize that some of its history is explained in the books, but not at first and it's not really needed for us to believe that Hogwarts could exist in the world JKR invented. So the "logical progression" doesn't really need to be spelled out unless it, itself, plays an integral role in the story. (For instance, the main characters find themselves tasked with exploring how their world came to be as it is.)

 

[skip.knox]

I shy away from proclamations of how writing *must* be done or else the end product isn't believable. It's fine to make such a pronouncement and add "for me" but I take issue when it's generalized to encompass all of human endeavor. Especially for the new writer, absolute pronouncements can actually be constricting if not damaging.

 

[LAG]

Depends on what you mean by 'medieval', I'm sure Japanese fashion and weaponry changed, as in Europe, throughout 900-1400, though not an expert in eastern history, but fashions tend to change, whether by cut, production method, color and many other factors besides. I also mention that Mr. Britain/Belgium are mostly dressed in a more western fashion, and a fashion that I'd say only came into vogue in the 1600's through to the last years of the nineteenth century, and of course this fashion did spread to Japan after contact... but I digress.

Now, if you want to employ the above aesthetic, consider introducing it via trade or fashion. Perhaps it is through an early expansion of maritime trade routes that those of Nippon managed to peddle their crafts, both armaments and clothing, to a wider world, much like the Phoenicians of old but far further abroad. As mentioned, Japan has a history of isolationism, so if you want to have a ocean-faring mercantile Empire, you will have to tweak culture, or bring in something like a private class of merchants with sanction to trade on behalf of the imperial house with foreign entities.

Another option is to enlarge your Japanese empire greatly, make them more technologically able at an earlier date, make them conquer mainland China, maybe India and as far as Siberia. Now, whether Europe is invaded or the aesthetic passed on by osmosis through trade or contact is up to you.

It is known that the Romans and Chinese were well aware of each other, so another path you can take is to expand either the Roman or Chinese states early on, making their borders reach far east or west. Now, the middle ages roll in, and maybe the fashion is already adopted by entire nations, with earlier European contact with Japan, or maybe the knightly aristocracy has adopted it as their own peculiar affectation, either due to aesthetic appreciation or some other economic, practical or political impetus.

*EDIT: I also like Devor's idea, it has a good hook.

 

[Aldarion]

I asked an alternate history question, and what you gave me completely ignores that. I asked on what point of departure in our history would allow medieval Europeans to have Japanese-style clothes and weapons, and instead of answering that question, you suggested that I go to that site. And you just said it yourself, they don't do alternate history, so what's the point?

I don't think there is such. Main reasons for Japan's pecularities are its geography (relative isolation, influence of China), climate, culture (religion etc.) and resources (or rather, lack of). Europe could not ever have either looked or felt like Japan, because it is significantly different in all these aspects.

 

[Miles Lacey]

Alternate history is about asking a "What if" scenario regards to key points in history. Kim Stanley Robinson posed the question "What if the Black Death wiped out 99% of the population of Europe?" and The Years of Rice and Salt was the result. It reads more like a work of fantasy than alternate history because of how early his point of departure from actual history took place. However, alternate history is not fantasy, although the alternate versions of our world posed by the points of departure from what actually happened could create a seemingly fantastical world.

Trade between the Chinese, Indians and Europeans was occurring in the Middle East for many centuries yet there is no indication that any of these groups adapted the fashions of one another. Why didn't fashion get traded in the same way as textiles, spices, gunpowder, precious stones and metals and weapons were traded? The most likely answer is that their respective ruling classes viewed the others as barbarians and they would not stoop to the level of adapting their fashions.

It's worth mentioning that Portugese and Dutch traders did have ports in Japan (most notably Nagasaki) where they traded with the Japanese during their period of isolation. There were also plans made by the Iberian Union to invade Japan in the late 16th Century. What if those invasion plans (assuming they were for real) were carried out? Would the rulers of the Iberian Union colony established in Japan have exported Japanese imperial fashions to Europe? Would the European ruling families have adapted Japanese imperial fashions? Who knows?

By looking at Japanese history and thinking of potential points of departure from actual Japanese history something could leap out at the original poster which they could then pursue.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I agree with Aldarion that it's hard to come up with a sensible point of departure. Which doesn't mean that you can't write this story, but mainly that you might want to stay away from focussing on the exact cause too much. I think readers generally don't care all that much about the history. They'll simply accept that your setting is whatever it is and go from there.

Trade between the Chinese, Indians and Europeans was occurring in the Middle East for many centuries yet there is no indication that any of these groups adapted the fashions of one another. Why didn't fashion get traded in the same way as textiles, spices, gunpowder, precious stones and metals and weapons were traded? The most likely answer is that their respective ruling classes viewed the others as barbarians and they would not stoop to the level of adapting their fashions.

I actually think the main reason is that it's cheaper and more profitable to trade textiles instead of fashion items. You can sell a roll of silk to pretty much any tailer out there and command a good price. For a specific dress you will need to find someone who actually wants to buy and wear it. Fashions change and you don't want to be stuck with an expensive good you can't sell to anyone. Also, the roll of fabric is easy to transport. Just roll it up and you're good. A piece of clothing takes up (relatively speaking) more space and you will crease it and get fold in there and all that.

Remember that trade was done by caravan. It was slow, it could take very little and it was hazardous. You only transport premium items which will make you a lot of money because that's the only thing worth the risk and expense.

"What if the Black Death wiped out 99% of the population of Europe?"

This could be the starting point, if we add in the Japanese isolationism. What if the plague wiped out 99.9% of the population of Europe and Asia, but it didn't touch Japan because no one went there from mainland Asia. Then you'd have a depopulated continent. And if at some point the Japanese venture out, they could simply colonise the whole thing.