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Why Don't You Showcase?

Ankari

Hero Breaker
Moderator
I don't think it has to be rigid, but a useful post on how best to critique a work should be posted and read by all. Even if you don't use it here, it would benefit you outside of these forums. Simple rules like:

  1. When commenting on a particular sentence use the Quote function located at the top of the Reply window.
  2. Be constructive instead of destructive
  3. Speak from your heart but don't assume everyone share the same heartbeat.
  4. It's better to comment thoroughly on one paragraph than halfhearted attempt on the entire posting.
  5. If the author begin to show teeth, note it and avoid any future postings.
  6. Address macro elements before micro elements.

For authors it would be something like:

  1. You are a big boy/girl now. If someone doesn't like what you wrote, accept it
  2. Don't engage in hostile interactions with your critics.
  3. It's fine to ask questions, but have an open mind on the response.
  4. If you need a bigger response on a particular point, use other forums and post that question.
  5. Don't tell critics "I'm not worried about grammar at this time." It's a cop out. Take all feedback, no matter what form it comes in.
  6. Post specific questions, it gives your critics an idea of what you're looking for.
  7. If you've posted specific questions and critics are responding to other points, don't get mad. Understand that those points may have been on such a large scale as to totally distract the reader.
  8. Grow thick skin and suck it up. You cannot exist in a bubble where you were constantly fortified with praise by those of your blood.


I'm sure there is more, but the above seems to be the right direction.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I'm sure there is more, but the above seems to be the right direction.

No offense, but those are so vague I don't even remember them after reading through them. On reread, I'm not sure I even agree with all of them. And the tone is just a little too tough for a stickied Admin thread.

I rather think a good sticky would include broad attitude guidelines, followed by samples/templates, followed by a more detailed how-to-critique discussion with sources.

But I don't think that would really even solve it. I think it would be best if there were more community incentive. But I don't know what.
 
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Ankari

Hero Breaker
Moderator
I wasn't doing this with the intention of making a sticky. All I wantis to further the discourse. I like your idea of more thorough guidelines. I remember someone stating they were part of some official contest or critic organization. Perhaps we can start a workshop on critiquing on these forums with oeople of that caliber directing it.
 
Orson Scott Card had an interesting concept on critiquing. Huh? What? and ZZZ
That's all there is too it.
Huh? for something that didn't make sense or was confusing.
What? for something not believable.
ZZZZ Borring.

Let the writer figure out what is wrong with the section, or if there is anything wrong. It is so simple even someone who has never written can do it. :)
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
Orson Scott Card had an interesting concept on critiquing. Huh? What? and ZZZ
That's all there is too it.
Huh? for something that didn't make sense or was confusing.
What? for something not believable.
ZZZZ Borring.

Let the writer figure out what is wrong with the section, or if there is anything wrong. It is so simple even someone who has never written can do it. :)

I love this idea. But what about something that is good? "Hot damn!" That's what I would want.

But yeah, just giving a one-word impression would then allow the writer to figure out what didn't work for the reader instead of giving long, detailed notes. The only problem is that putting "Huh?" "What?" or "Zzzz" would probably make someone really, really angry. :)
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
Orson Scott Card had an interesting concept on critiquing. Huh? What? and ZZZ
That's all there is too it.
Huh? for something that didn't make sense or was confusing.
What? for something not believable.
ZZZZ Borring.

Let the writer figure out what is wrong with the section, or if there is anything wrong. It is so simple even someone who has never written can do it. :)

I think this would work well with people who are familiar with each other. But I have my reservations for other cases because it runs under the assumption that the critique is correct and there is something wrong with a section. Some things can be subjective and an unspecific comment could cause someone to change something they didn't need to.

I just recently had someone comment a sentence was confusing because it said someone jumped on the gravy train. They didn't know what gravy train meant. In the same critique they said a shop owner striking up a conversation with someone who came into their store as being unbelievable. Without specifics, how would one know what to ignore and what to seriously look at?
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
In the same critique they said a shop owner striking up a conversation with someone who came into their store as being unbelievable.

Seriously? I've lived in suburbs, small towns and in New York City - I've never been someplace which would make me think that was remotely unbelievable. That's crazy. . . . no, I take it back, does he live in Jersey?
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
Seriously? I've lived in suburbs, small towns and in New York City - I've never been someplace which would make me think that was remotely unbelievable. That's crazy. . . . no, I take it back, does he live in Jersey?

No, we're in Canada. It's all fluffy bunnies that poop balloons up here. :p

But to me it just shows how subjective some things can be and some of the challenges of giving and getting critiques. It's hard enough in person, and for me, doing it over the net is made even more challenging. In person I can say something that takes only a minute or two, but may take me fifteen minutes to half an hour composing a post with the right tone and message.
 

Kit

Maester
People need to be really clear with both others and themselves regarding what they truly want.

Many of us, if we were truly honest, are looking for VALIDATION and not feedback. We really want people to read our work and say "YOWZA! That's Effing AWESOME!!!! :skip: Why are you not published yet??!!" instead of handing us a numbered list of "here's all the reasons your WIP sucks."

There's nothing wrong with wanting validation... it's human.... but don't ask for feedback/critiques if what you REALLY want is validation.

I make very free with offering validation, but am much more reticent and careful about offering feedback. When someone asks me for feedback, I always ask them if they really want validation or feedback. If they convince me that they actually want feedback, I always offer "here are a few things I like about it" along with "here are a few things that I think you could improve (as specific as possible). No matter how crappy it is, I can always find something positive to say... and no matter how incredible it is, I can always find something that could be even more incredible.

Many of us have fragile creative egoes. Frankly it crushes the hell out of me when someone is too rough (by my own perception) on my artwork. A couple of people on this forum were a little rough on something of mine a while ago, and it was hurtful enough that I don't want to post anything else I've written on here. (Fiction-wise, that is.... I don't give a crap if people don't like my opinions; that won't slow me down....)
 
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Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Offering validation when not warranted is harmful to the writer. If you tell them "this is great, you should be published" when in reality the piece you are reviewing is a mess, you've done a terrible disservice to the person.
 

Kit

Maester
I never said anything about FALSE validation. If I offer validation, it's sincere. Again, I can find SOMETHING to like. (I might have to strain a bit, but I'll find something!)

I don't usually make sweeping pronouncements about the quality of the work as a whole unless it's honestly really favorable.


Anyway, if someone is actually looking for validation, they are probably not going to be open to truly hearing your critiques- and employing them- anyway. In which case you're wasting your time and theirs by giving that feedback.
 
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ArielFingolfin

Troubadour
I always like to include a positive and negative to the critique, otherwise I don't think it's well rounded. Yes, knowing what you need to fix helps, but knowing what you did well and what the strengths of the story are is equally important. Especially first drafts when sometimes good things happen by accident. And there's a difference between false praise and building a writer up, especially if their struggling in another aspect. I think a lot of critiquers whose advice isn't taken or is blown off are forgetting to focus on the positive as well as what needs to be fixed. Not all, but a lot. I know I'm more apt to pay attention to a critique if the person lets me know what they think works as well as what they think doesn't, not just because it makes me feel like I haven't completely wasted my time, but because I feel like they're more interested in the story and they're a serious writer who is trying to help. There have been times (not here, elsewhere) where I've felt like I was being critiqued by someone making themselves feel better about their own writing by pointing out all the flaws in mine.

Edited in: I do agree with Kit though in that a good critique focuses on specifics. You shouldn't say 'this is amazing, I've never read anything real before this' any more than you should say 'this story sucks, you're going to literary hell'. Neither are helpful.
 
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Kit

Maester
I think a lot of critiquers whose advice isn't taken or is blown off are forgetting to focus on the positive as well as what needs to be fixed.

There have been times (not here, elsewhere) where I've felt like I was being critiqued by someone making themselves feel better about their own writing by pointing out all the flaws in mine.

Exactly. There's an interesting theory that says most editors are blocked writers.

There are a lot of people on the internet who simply seem to get their jollies by throwing rocks at other people's paper boats.

There are even more who seem to think they are on some kind of holy jihad to singlehandedly purge the internet of anything that falls into their (sweeping) personal definition of "bs". If I think I'm dealing with one of *those*, I tend to not take anything they say seriously (although it still makes me say "ouch") and may in fact simply put them on the "ignore" function.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Yeah, I'm with you guys. The critique has to be honest, and whether that is mostly positive or mostly negative depends on the work. I also like to know how long the writer has been writing, personally.

I also agree that generalizations aren't very useful. If someone critiques my story by saying "Wow, this sucks" I'll ignore it. If they go into detail telling me why it sucks, then I'll consider it carefully.
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
Couldn't agree with you guys more. To me finding flaws in stuff is easy. But the skill in a helpful critique is also in being able to find the positive in something. When you can do that, not only do you help writer see what they're doing right so they don't mess with that element of their writing, you help yourself because you get better at spotting the good stuff in your own writing, which I think is under emphasized.

I agree some people are just looking for a reason to go off and really don't care about helping. I've had people tell me a character's action doesn't make sense, and I needed to explain X. Generally a valid and much appreciated comment if there wasn't a whole paragraph explaining X clearly right at the beginning. This is one of my big pet peeves, people who don't really read your work but yet feel the need to take a dig into it.

If someone spent the time to really read something I wrote and speak honestly, I can take almost any comment about it because they gifted me their time. It doesn't matter if I agree or disagree with them, and to an extent, how harsh they are.

Personally, I like validation as much as then next person, but all I need is a taste. One of my greatest fears is being like one of those people who auditions for American Idol and have been told all their lives how great they can sing when in reality they're pretty terrible. I don't want to walk through life being delusional. I'd rather someone be a little too harsh than not enough. The former makes me work harder. The latter gives a false sense of self.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I had to read a study about feedback when I was in college (business school, they made us learn just about every useful little thing...), and they found that giving someone feedback shifts their attention towards the areas that are mentioned, away from whatever the feedback is silent about. They also found that comments like "You're Brilliant!" could be as negative as comments like "You're stupid" because they shifted attention towards the self instead of towards work and performance. So that, in essence, good feedback should cover as much content as possible and remain as work-focused as possible. Common sense.

So I think the Showcase would be more effective if people posted much smaller works and offered much more thorough feedback, to the point where people would be commenting on the feedback than on the work.

A sentence. This sentence doesn't have a verb. In the context of a placeholder, I don't think it needs one.

((edit))

That almost seems like a wiki discussion. I wonder if maybe there's better software to do that.
 
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Maybe the best way to change the way feedback is given is to go in there and set an example. Critique a post or two the way you think they should be critiqued and maybe people will follow your lead.

To answer the OP, I do showcase. I haven't done so recently, but there are four or five pieces of mine in the showcase. Feel free to check them out if you want ;) (though they are probably several pages back by now). I used to critique a lot as well, but I don't do it as much anymore. Besides being busy, when I check into the showcase section I have to be intrigued enough to give a critique. This is absolutely not an indictment of the writers' ability in the showcase (the vast majority of you guys probably write much better than me anyways). A story has to be right up my alley as far as the type of fantasy that I read for me to critique. If it is not the type of story I would like to read, I probably won't enjoy it regardless of how well it is written, and I won't be able to tell you what is working and what isn't. Because of all this, giving a critique of the piece would be unfair to the writer. Also, I don't consider myself an authority on any of this writing business. That makes me a bit hesitant to tell writers definitively what is good and what is bad.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
Maybe the best way to change the way feedback is given is to go in there and set an example. Critique a post or two the way you think they should be critiqued and maybe people will follow your lead.

Maybe a few of us should get together, figure out a few standards, and make like a month-long commitment to set a better example for the community and energize the Showcase. One good push and maybe we could set a lasting trend.
 

Ankari

Hero Breaker
Moderator
Maybe a few of us should get together, figure out a few standards, and make like a month-long commitment to set a better example for the community and energize the Showcase. One good push and maybe we could set a lasting trend.

That would be excellent. Perhaps it could even evolve into a Review Team. Whatever the results, a focused group dedicated to a one or two month trailblazing effort would be great. I would join it just for the educational benefits.
 
Well right now there seems to be a dearth of entries in the showcase, so I'm going to try to throw something in there either today or tomorrow to kick off my contributions. It will probably be something I'm struggling with, so feel free to let loose on it :eek:

EDIT: I posted something. Project Red Bull engaged. (I mean we're trying to energize it right?)
 
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