Worst Fantasy World Cliches

[Crcata]

I dont don't think anyone is defending rape as a real world occurrence, thats pretty nonsensical. Only that writing about it shouldn't be shunned.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

I dont don't think anyone is defending rape as a real world occurrence, thats pretty nonsensical. Only that writing about it shouldn't be shunned.

I don’t think anyone is claiming anyone is?

 

[pmmg]

So, with regard to DOTA's long post above...

It is clearly true that we live in a world where many people have had traumatic things happen to them. It is also clearly true that for many that was in the form of rape it is easy to understand why some may feel that topic hits close to home. People are vastly different from each other, and it would be impossible to say how one may react to a topic over another.

People who have had these types of trauma's in their lives, they do have my sympathy, and those who are sensitive to these subjects, I can relate to them as well.

Dota is saying that she feels too many writers include this, and that the topic is not handled in a way which is sensitive enough to people who have had real world experiences. She is of the feeling that not enough empathy is being shown towards victims of such experiences, she even implores that we should try to get to a point of empathy with people who have had such experiences before we write on topics which could be upsetting. Both Malik and Dota have written that they feel too many authors include this, not because it brings value to the story, but because it is personally titillating to the author, and serves only the purpose to add shock value.

Is that a fair summation?

I can certainly understand why many may feel put off by this topic or by such scenes as they appear in fiction. Malik went on to say he has just read a book where every single female character was raped at some point (might that have been Game of Thrones?), so I would not argue that such depictions are not prevalent, and or even in many cases handled poorly, or even that some authors include them for poor reasons. Clearly, all of those conditions exist.

I would never call anybody wrong for holding such sentiments, and it is entirely okay if they have strong opinions on what they see and what they think it all means. And if DOTA, or Malik, or anyone else, wants less of it in their fiction, hey, more power to them on that. I can totally relate to your concerns, and am totally fine with you and others holding similar views. But I do not think I will ever subscribe to them. I am in a different camp than that. I like the world unfiltered.

I would make the argument that we touch the world through our stories, and stories are the most powerful vehicle to say what we want to say and shape the things around us. And tough subjects are not to be avoided, they are to be dared. And while it is true that 90% of everything is dreck, it’s for the 10% that we cannot have limits.

DOTA is a person with concerns and a beloved member of the site, and she totally cool with me. Someone said ease off on the ad hominem attacks. I don’t see where that has occurred, but sorry if someone felt I had attacked them.

I would also say that generally, I am not one that likes to hate on things, and so a thread about hating on even clichés is not something I go for. I think there is no point in hating on them, they are clichés for a reason, and like everything else, there is good and bad in them. When used well, then they have their place.

I was objecting to the use of misogyny, both in the way Malik introduced it, and the way DOTA expanded upon it. I do not ascribe to the thinking that anything that is not favorable to women is misogyny, and I believe I have said as much. The argument was raised about realism not being sufficient to include scenes that would be unfavorable towards women. I argue, and would continue to do so, that realism is always a sufficient reason. (And I almost never use always).

DOTA says we are making choices, I think that is...half true. Yes, we are making choices, but our choices are guided by the story itself, and what we believe the likely outcomes of the actions and events surrounding various characters. I am sure everyone here has had the experience of feeling as if the story was writing itself. I use the word likely a lot. It does not mean that other outcomes are impossible, only that the further we get away from likely, the harder it is to sell.

I made the statement: "Rape is a likely outcome to a female character in a dangerous situation in a world where someone is trying to handle things in a realistic way."

DOTA challenges that and asks why:

Herein is my point: “realism” is suddenly not a concern when it comes to dysentery, armor, hairy armpits, dragons being able to fly, and wizards. But when it comes to women getting assaulted, violated and brutalized, it is suddenly important.

Why?

Do you really want a reason? Would it surprise you to know that I do think about things like dysentery and armor and hairy armpits? And I am sure a lot of other authors do as well. My answer to that is, when those become important to the story, I will include them, when they are not, I won’t. I do, however, think that a rape is more likely to be shaping to a character than whether they shaved or not, so it would seem not uncommon to me that it got more attention.

And yes, I will at times dare to take on stories with rapes and bad treatment of women. I will not write them with today's values (if I can escape it), I will write them as it seems it fits the character, and I hope it is convincing, and ultimately, I hope it touches someone. Maybe it won’t. Maybe Malik is right, and I should have chosen instead to be one less person with such a story. But I will prefer to dare.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

So, with regard to DOTA's long post above...
.

(shortened for space)

I would like it said that I am very in favor of including dark, disturbing things in books, even though my previous posts might have sounded different. Those things are important. Why? Because it's what helps us survive horrors in the real world. Stories are what tell us that we are not alone in the hell we have been through. We need to read about characters who go through awful things and fight to get better and to heal, because it helps us confront the awfulness of the real world and counter it with empathy, humanity and strength. We process real horrors with the help of fictional ones. One can read the story of someone who has suffered like them, and think to themselves, "They survived. They got through it. And I will too." It's how we cope. It's the only way we can deal with it. We're alone, damaged, and scared, but so is everybody else.

It is powerful, powerful stuff.

And why am I so viciously critical of including rape in books?

Because the vast majority of authors treat it as a decision with no weight, like some kind of grimdark decoration to their world. Some kind of aesthetic decision. Including something *that* abhorrent seems like something that would require a lot of the author, but it's always, "Well, it just makes sense." or "It's realistic." I read over and over again about rape being tossed frivolously around because the author wants their book to be Dark and Gritty. Or they want to show that their evil villain is really legit evil. Or they want something bad to happen to their main character. And they are unwilling to fully face the implications for their characters or deal with what they are actually writing in a way that makes sense. The horror of the rape is used as a tool and the character, their dignity, their trauma, their capacity to heal, or all of the above vanish out of convenience. I read again and again about the trauma relating to sexual assault being totally glossed over and the importance of what happened totally minimized or horribly misrepresented. (Last year I read a book by a fairly popular fantasy author where a character fell in love with the person who assaulted them. ???) . The victim themselves half the time isn't given dignity and full humanity, they are just a dumpster for the grimness of the author's world.

Aside from being tone deaf, many depictions of sexual assault in books actually do damage by blaming the victim or insinuating that they "deserved" it, or doing something like having the victim fall in love with their rapist, or worse. This is even laying aside the male gaze/titillation aspect of it.

Seriously. Ive read some things that have made me want to throw my brain into a pond.

And in most cases, this shows that rape is no more real or personal to these authors than the black magic or orc beheadings, it's just not something that provokes a visceral reaction in them, it is a device, a tool, a piece of character development. Being *able* to treat it that lightly shows how little they empathize with real world survivors and vulnerable populations in general. I'm highly critical of rape in books because almost nothing I've read shows respect for survivors. And sure, people might disagree with me, but respect, empathy, and understanding is the *only* place to approach certain things that are just this sensitive. I can't *make* someone empathize, but if anyone feels like I'm oppressively trying to force it on them, strangling their creativity, that alone might be a reason for deeper thinking.

Confession: I have written some really horrible shit.

I have not written about rape or sexual assault, but I put my last protagonist through an almost literal hell. He was abused as a child, and endured years of literal torture, resulting in severe post-traumatic stress and trust issues upon trust issues. I researched trauma and PTSD for this. (Research research research.) His panic attacks are, in fact, almost entirely self-referential; for that, I wrote what I'd experienced myself. I wanted to be as realistic as possible, and I didn't want to just use his pain to drive the plot, I wanted to do better. What happened to him was horrible, but he was a whole person outside of that, and I showed him being totally broken down and destroyed, and fighting to get better, and experiencing love, and pushing it away, and trying to claw back to it, and trying to process how to receive and show affection. This is not to say that a character who experiences trauma has to be a main character. This is to say: don't reduce the character entirely just to what happened to them. Let them be a character. Research. And understand. Understand most importantly. Don't just exploit them to turn your reader's stomachs.

Even knowing that the story needed everything I did, I still found writing about all this extremely *hard*. Like, emotionally. Writing about it was upsetting but it was necessary and yet it was the fact that I fully realized him as a character and showed him trying to recover the scraps of his personality he had and trying to return the love that was shown to him even though he had no idea how and generally just honestly depicting his reality was what brought it from necessary to powerful. I might not have done everything right, but I tried.

 

[Ban]

Because the vast majority of authors treat it as a decision with no weight, like some kind of grimdark decoration to their world. Some kind of aesthetic decision. Including something *that* abhorrent seems like something that would require a lot of the author, but it's always, "Well, it just makes sense." or "It's realistic." I read over and over again about rape being tossed frivolously around because the author wants their book to be Dark and Gritty. Or they want to show that their evil villain is really legit evil. Or they want something bad to happen to their main character. And they are unwilling to fully face the implications for their characters or deal with what they are actually writing in a way that makes sense. The horror of the rape is used as a tool and the character, their dignity, their trauma, their capacity to heal, or all of the above vanish out of convenience. I read again and again about the trauma relating to sexual assault being totally glossed over and the importance of what happened totally minimized or horribly misrepresented. (Last year I read a book by a fairly popular fantasy author where a character fell in love with the person who assaulted them. ???) . The victim themselves half the time isn't given dignity and full humanity, they are just a dumpster for the grimness of the author's world.

Not to push you into a corner but now I'm interested to hear why people in general have this open critique regarding rape but no one says the same about murder? People are murdered left and right in fiction without anyone bashing an eye (and I don't think they should). Murder has been thoroughly ingrained as something that can be used in fiction for no other reason than to darken a story or even for nothing else than rule of cool, so what makes rape a different beast entirely?

I remember in a previous discussion of this sort that someone mentioned that rape was more prevalent, or that more people come in contact with it in their lives which gives it a more 'real' gravitas, but I think that's absolute horseshit. Plenty of people have had murders happen in their community, myself included. Same thing for a matter as dark as suicide, which many people including myself have been in contact with. These things rarely gains the same level of scrutiny as rape when used in fiction and again I don't think they should. But it does make me wonder why many people believe rape needs weight whereas other heavy matters seemingly do not?

Note: Also we've strayed from the original subject quite a bit, but everyone has been cordial about it, so I think it is fine if we keep discussing in a civil manner. These are the types of topics that should be discussed from time to time.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Not to push you into a corner but now I'm interested to hear why people in general have this open critique regarding rape but no one says the same about murder? People are murdered left and right in fiction without anyone bashing an eye (and I don't think they should). Murder has been thoroughly ingrained as something that can be used in fiction for no other reason than to darken a story or even for nothing else than rule of cool, so what makes rape a different beast entirely?

I remember in a previous discussion of this sort that someone mentioned that rape was more prevalent, or that more people come in contact with it in their lives which gives it a more 'real' gravitas, but I think that's absolute horseshit. Plenty of people have had murders happen in their community, myself included. Same thing for a matter as dark as suicide, which many people including myself have been in contact with. These things rarely gains the same level of scrutiny as rape when used in fiction and again I don't think they should. But it does make me wonder why many people believe rape need weight whereas other heavy matters seemingly do not?

Murder absolutely isn’t as prevalent as rape. With rape, the statistics are something like 18% of women have been victims of an attempted or completed rape. That means almost everyone knows someone. Even these stats are probably low, since so many people don’t report assault.

Almost half of the girls I know well enough to know of something like this have been groped or touched w/o their consent in a sexual manner in an event I’ve been told about. Treating women abominably is normalized enough that we’re surrounded by threatening behavior. I guess the equivalent would be if you had no idea who would decide to murder you because being threatened was just everywhere and no one would care if someone made you feel unsafe.

As for suicide, I mean, I’ve seen people advocate for similar levels of care with this topic. There was a reason 13 Reasons Why was so criticized; it was horrific representation of suicide and mental illness.

And suicide isn’t really a staple of a fantasy novel, either. Like you don’t have fantasy books where multiple characters just off themselves out of nowhere.

I don’t think murder should be taken lightly anyway. If you introduce a characters just to kill them to show your world is dark, that’s bad writing. If you kill a character and don’t show the effect on other characters, that’s bad writing. I’m similarly annoyed with characters in war never experiencing PTSD or any negative mental effects at all.

But I still maintain that rape is far more likely to be immediate and personal for readers.

 

[Ban]

I guess the equivalent would be if you had no idea who would decide to murder you because being threatened was just everywhere and no one would care if someone made you feel unsafe.

As for suicide, I mean, I’ve seen people advocate for similar levels of care with this topic. There was a reason 13 Reasons Why was so criticized; it was horrific representation of suicide and mental illness.

But that is reality for plenty of people in plenty of areas of the world, including large swaths of the west, where murder, assault and the daily threat of having your life compromised does exist and is functionally equivalent at the very least to rape and sexual assault. I'd also add that when a person is murdered, not just them, but their entire community suffers.

And I don't agree with you on the matter of suicide there. Sure, few series, movies and other forms of media will outright kill a character simply because, but how often is suicide mentioned in jest? All the time. Equivalents of "Ugh I'll kill myself" are thrown around so willy nilly that no one cares, and again I don't think they should, but it should be mentioned here.

I respect your opinion, but I do think that we should start discussing these matters in these types of conversations as a package deal. I think it's very strange that writers (not you specifically) tend to treat one serious matter with delicateness, while other equally serious matters are not given the same weight. To me it's an all or nothing situation and I'll take all. All things should be acceptable, no matter how little tact is used.

Ban rant done, I hope I properly added what I wanted to say.

 

[Gray-Hand]

The murder rate in , say the United States is about 5 in 100,000.
The rate of sexual assault of women is estimated at about about 1 in 5 or higher.
So rape directly affects way more people. And no murder victim ever needs a trigger warning because they are already dead and can’t read, so the comparison isn’t really valid in any event.

The way killings are portrayed in fantasy writing also creates a great sense of separation between real life events. In fantasy, and most forms of entertainment, character deaths are usually dignified and awesome, often the conclusion of an exciting and heroic battle. The killings themselves are often a just and heroic act in themselves when it is a villain that gets killed.

If popular entertainment portrayed killings as the horrible events they usualy are more often - say for example that fight in Saving Private Ryan that ends with a German soldier slowly driving a knife into the chest of the American, or all of the killings of prisoners in Schindler’s List, then killing would not be thought of as particularly entertaining.

 

[Ban]

And no murder victim ever needs a trigger warning because they are already dead and can’t read, so the comparison isn’t really valid in any event.

Now this is just callous and unnecessarily rude. In what reality do you live where the survivors of murder victims don't suffer greatly?

 

[Gray-Hand]

Wasn’t saying they don’t suffer. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

 

[pmmg]

Forums occupy an unusual space of trying to be structured conversation. So in respect to the concept of the site, one really ought not drift the thread, and stay on topic. But...Conversations drift and some points are very useful to have said than not, and people are people.

Without giving it a lot of thought, and I would asset as true that the average person seems many more fictional instances of murder than anything else, I think the reason there is a separation in the sentiments is the psychology of how it affects the viewer. I don't think too many people watch a murder in their media and think, damn, that was cool. I want to commit a murder right now. But...sex... yeah, a good sex scene can make me want it right now. Sex is generally pleasant, murder is general not. So...I think murder gets a pass on instant human psychology that sex scenes, including rape, don't. Both are bad, but they psychologically affect us differently. Anyway.... Time to head home. Night John-Boy.

Confession: I have written some really horrible shit.

You never fooled me for an instant A little darkness lives in us all.

 

[Black Dragon]

Everyone...

Please take a breather and let go of the hostility. We are all friends here.

Then read this section from the Forum Rules:

Sensitive Topics

When discussing sensitive issues, all members participating in such a discussion (post originator and respondents) are required to take extra care and treat the topic with the appropriate gravity, making certain they exhibit open-mindedness, understanding, respect, & empathy for their fellow scribes.

Sensitive issues include, but are not limited to:

1. Sexual assault (rape, molestation, incest, etc.)
2. Gender-based discussions
3. Racial relations
4. Sexual orientation and self-identity
5. Religion-based discussions
6. Physical abuse (child abuse, torture, domestic violence, etc.)

We understand these topics have a place in literature. However, as a family friendly site, and with a diverse membership base, involved parties must exercise caution. As a participant in such a discussion, it is your responsibility to avoid framing questions and answers in an offensive manner. During presentation or debate, ensure your intention is to enlighten, educate, persuade, or learn.

A discussion directly related to writing will be granted more leeway by the moderators. However, we reserve the right to shut down any discussion that becomes weird, suspicious in intent, or provides a disservice to our community. Discussions that veer away from this guideline will be closed and/or deleted. Offenders may be issued infractions.

Above all, exercise good judgment.

 

[TheKillerBs]

The first thing was from a book I have. I might have misremembered. Idk man.

The second thing, well...I’m not even sure what your point is because the only reason divorce would be bad in that circumstance is, as you say, because women are disadvantaged economically. I’m not denying that a lot of women would have starved without their husbands to support them. That’s not exactly a good thing though.

I never said it was a good thing. I said the prohibition on divorce, given a certain historical context, was not (just) an imposition on a woman but also a protection. History is complicated and we tend to spout out either misinterpreted or erroneous or outdated information as historical facts because they've been parrotted at us for so long as if they were. My point? Who says I had one? I'm just this guy.

 

[Ban]

Wasn’t saying they don’t suffer. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of your words. The crutch of your argument is that victims of murder won't suffer from reading fiction containing murder as they are already dead. Callousness aside, this necessarily ignores the fact that those victimized by a murder include not only the direct victim, but the surrounding community of that victim.

 

[Ban]

Now this topic also seems to be too close to my heart, so I'll take a step back and let it unfold without me.

Everyone...

Please take a breather and let go of the hostility. We are all friends here.

That should afford Black Dragon a breather as well hopefully

 

[Gray-Hand]

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of your words. The crutch of your argument is that victims of murder won't suffer from reading fiction containing murder as they are already dead. Callousness aside, this necessarily ignores the fact that those victimized by a murder include not only the direct victim, but the surrounding community of that victim.

I never wrote anything to the contrary.
You were out of line calling me rude and callous.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

I feel that maybe murder in fiction and rape in fiction are in some ways kind of an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Violence and character death in general have some variance in how they can be portrayed. For instance, a character dying in battle can be seen as heroic and glorious. Now, is this a good or accurate way to portray death and war? Maybe not. It deserves more thought.

Rape is somewhat different as a number of your readers will have not only been affected by it but have directly experienced it, and it’s kind of a different *kind* of trauma. Trauma victims are affected by a variety of factors, such as their ability to re-integrate into the community, how well understood and talked about their experiences are, and the overall ability to feel safe again after experiencing a traumatic event. Witnessing violence undoubtedly causes trauma. Being physically violated and having the sense of your *personhood* invaded and taken away, though I won’t say one is more or less traumatic, isn’t exactly analogous.

I’m not going to deny that fiction has bundles and bundles of problems with dealing with serious topics. Abuse apologism is a big one. And yes, joking and jesting about suicide is another one. Many people have had a loved one commit suicide or have survived an attempt themselves and such remarks are seen in a different light by those people. I think simply becoming more informed, getting out into the world, and having conversations with people will help a lot.

 

[Ban]

I feel that maybe murder in fiction and rape in fiction are in some ways kind of an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Violence and character death in general have some variance in how they can be portrayed. For instance, a character dying in battle can be seen as heroic and glorious. Now, is this a good or accurate way to portray death and war? Maybe not. It deserves more thought.

Rape is somewhat different as a number of your readers will have not only been affected by it but have directly experienced it, and it’s kind of a different *kind* of trauma. Trauma victims are affected by a variety of factors, such as their ability to re-integrate into the community, how well understood and talked about their experiences are, and the overall ability to feel safe again after experiencing a traumatic event. Witnessing violence undoubtedly causes trauma. Being physically violated and having the sense of your *personhood* invaded and taken away, though I won’t say one is more or less traumatic, isn’t exactly analogous.

I’m not going to deny that fiction has bundles and bundles of problems with dealing with serious topics. Abuse apologism is a big one. And yes, joking and jesting about suicide is another one. Many people have had a loved one commit suicide or have survived an attempt themselves and such remarks are seen in a different light by those people. I think simply becoming more informed, getting out into the world, and having conversations with people will help a lot.

I still don't quite agree here, as you are now using violence and character death in a general sense in the same breath as murder. These are indeed related matters, as one is a component of the other, but the distinction is key. Murder involves violence, but violence is not murder. So too rape involves harassment, but harassment does not capture the horror of rape. By comparing the subject of violence as depicted in fiction and existing in reality to the subject of rape, instead of directly comparing murder in all its dimensions to rape, it softens the former to an unrepresentative degree.

But I think this is simply a subject to disagree on, unless we end up talking in circles. I think you made some good points.

 

[Ban]

I never wrote anything to the contrary.
You were out of line calling me rude and callous.

I don't believe I was.

no murder victim ever needs a trigger warning because they are already dead and can’t read

Is a brash way of wording a sentence and the way you wrote that sentence came across to me as mocking the gravity of the subject matter. I'll take your word that that was not your intention.

 

[Futhark]

I don’t think there are bad cliches, just poorly executed ones. A writer may think, “well, this worked for them, it will work for me” and the publisher may think “well, we’ve sold this before”. Cliches and tropes are a writer’s bread and butter, they are the ideas that we twist, subvert, invert or reinvent to tell a story. The problem, to me at least, is when the story is just a pastiche, a copy, that lacks the finer points that made the original good.

For example, the Chosen One. For me this has been done to death. I never wanted to read another chosen story EVER. Then I read the Twilight Reign series by Tom Lloyd, and guess what? It used the chosen trope in a way I have never seen before and I loved it. So is it a good cliche now, or still a bad one?

As for the serious subjects being raised, I would like to tentatively say that writers who include rape, or gore, murder, torture, or any other gratuitous thriller/shock simply because it worked for others, or to add some notoriety or tittillation to their work, do a great diservice to these subjects, and themselves.

Regarding misogyny, gender inequality, patriarchal vs matriarchal roles and societies, well, those are some deep waters and I didn’t bring my SCUBA gear, heh. All I would want to add is do the research, beware your bias, and be compassionate of those who have suffered trauma and/or injustice. Be well.