Dexter's Sister and female characters, * lets keep it CIVIL!! *

[Mythopoet]

Why do so many people seem to have so much difficulty writing female characters? It's a fairly hot topic. I don't recall ever seeing a thread about the difficulty of writing male characters, but I've lost count of the threads about the challenges of writing female characters. How is it any more difficult than writing any other character? Personally, I don't think it is, yet so many writers are convinced it is. Why?

It's probably because writers are continually judged and criticized for their portrayals of female characters, but very rarely for portrayals of male characters , unless it's because the male character is a racial minority. Heaven help you if you try to write a female character that is a racial minority. You'd better get it absolutely perfect or the critics will tear you apart. As a society, we care far more about how female characters are portrayed and so its natural for writers to be more concerned about it.

Personally, I think this is a terrible thing because I don't believe you can achieve true equality if you're constantly treating one sex like it's far more important. You can't balance the scales by going to the opposite extreme. You have to start treating both sexes as of equal importance right now. And also, because as you point out, it makes it seem like females are some rare creature that is mysterious and hard to pin down. It makes writers more afraid to write female characters, which will just end up leading to the same problem for a different reason: lack of female characters.

 

[Gryphos]

Psychologists use what's called the Big Five personality traits as a baseline for measuring behavior. They are openness, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism. Psychologists measure these traits in countries world wide. And somehow the gender differences on these five traits are biggest in wealthy, healthy, more egalitarian societies. That doesn't speak to social conditioning. Quite the opposite. That speaks to biology and self-determination.

Just a note: the fact that there is a difference across cultures actually only proves that environment is a massive influence.

As to there being a greater gender difference in first world countries, first off I'm skeptical of that, so if you have any supporting sources I'd gladly examine them. But let's assume that you're right for now. That could be the result of a greater media presence, perhaps. The media is one of the most powerful tools of social conditioning, so in more economically developed countries, in which the media has a greater presence and capability to influence the population, this insidious social conditioning is more able to take place, and may be more powerful than the more explicitly old fashioned sexism that still exists in some places.

 

[Devor]

As to there being a greater gender difference in first world countries, first off I'm skeptical of that, so if you have any supporting sources I'd gladly examine them.

As a rule I don't like to post links to prove a point. But I encourage you to educate yourself on the topic.

That could be the result of a greater media presence, perhaps. The media is one of the most powerful tools of social conditioning, so in more economically developed countries, in which the media has a greater presence and capability to influence the population, this insidious social conditioning is more able to take place, and may be more powerful than the more explicitly old fashioned sexism that still exists in some places.

I can see why you would think that. But with a lot of different media, people have a tremendous opportunity to self-select the media they want to experience. In other countries, they get the media they get. So again, that speaks to self-determination, which speaks to biology.

 

[Gryphos]

I can see why you would think that. But with a lot of different media, people have a tremendous opportunity to self-select the media they want to experience. In other countries, they get the media they get. So again, that speaks to self-determination, which speaks to biology.

Do people really have the ability to self-select their media, though? I mean, a person can not listen to a song, but that doesn't stop that song playing in a hairdresser's, or on an advert, or in the trailer to a film. And also, while currently there is a wave of self-serving media in the form of things like Netflix and the internet in general, remember that these are very recent creations, and most adults nowadays will have grown up in a time without these things. A few decades ago, even in Western countries, people got the media they were given. And even disregarding this, if every piece of media, or at least a large amount of it, instills the same messages again and again, like gender roles, those will sink in to the overall mindset of the population, regardless of whatever effort individuals take to avoid specific pieces of media.

Additionally, the media of course isn't the only factor. Parents often bring up their children in ways that enforce gender stereotypes, having the girl help the mother with the washing up and the boy help the dad with fixing the car. But, this would be present in any culture. What isn't present in every culture is the force of marketing and the toy industry. Just think about the last time you went into a toy store and saw the different sections for boys and girls. The boys all get things like action figures and soldiers and monster trucks, all of which will instills typically 'masculine' traits in them, along with other factors. Meanwhile, the girls get dolls and dollhouses (pink, of course). This is disgusting. However, one may argue that the toy industry sells dolls to girls and cars to boys because that's just what they want. They're just pleasing their target demographic. Umm... no. See, what they fail to consider is the fact that girls like dolls and boys like cars because that's all they've ever been given.

Babies, when they're born, don't have a choice in what toys they get or media they consume. The girls get put into the pink blanket and boys the blue. That's not self-determination, that's social conditioning.

 

[Mythopoet]

However, even if we want to assume there is an average represented by majority for a given psychological trait, when we're dealing with human beings we are talking about a large number of traits that vary along a continuum between any two individuals. I think the point about not finding individuals who embody broadly some kind of perceived average still stands. It may be useful to talk about statistically, but it falls apart on the individual level.

This is pretty much how I see any "science" that purports to study the human person. It always falls apart at the individual level. Humans are simply far too individually unique. Biology can't account for it. My personal belief is that it is our souls that make us individual persons and modern science cannot study the soul.

 

[Devor]

See, what they fail to consider is the fact that girls like dolls and boys like cars because that's all they've ever been given.

They give gendered toys to little monkeys who have none of that media or social conditioning, and they still find that the girls take the doll and the boys take the truck. That speaks again to self-determination and biology.

Again, this is all basic research on the topic. I encourage you to look it up.

 

[X Equestris]

Do people really have the ability to self-select their media, though? I mean, a person can not listen to a song, but that doesn't stop that song playing in a hairdresser's, or on an advert, or in the trailer to a film. And also, while currently there is a wave of self-serving media in the form of things like Netflix and the internet in general, remember that these are very recent creations, and most adults nowadays will have grown up in a time without these things. A few decades ago, even in Western countries, people got the media they were given. And even disregarding this, if every piece of media, or at least a large amount of it, instills the same messages again and again, like gender roles, those will sink in to the overall mindset of the population, regardless of whatever effort individuals take to avoid specific pieces of media.

Additionally, the media of course isn't the only factor. Parents often bring up their children in ways that enforce gender stereotypes, having the girl help the mother with the washing up and the boy help the dad with fixing the car. But, this would be present in any culture. What isn't present in every culture is the force of marketing and the toy industry. Just think about the last time you went into a toy store and saw the different sections for boys and girls. The boys all get things like action figures and soldiers and monster trucks, all of which will instills typically 'masculine' traits in them, along with other factors. Meanwhile, the girls get dolls and dollhouses (pink, of course). This is disgusting. However, one may argue that the toy industry sells dolls to girls and cars to boys because that's just what they want. They're just pleasing their target demographic. Umm... no. See, what they fail to consider is the fact that girls like dolls and boys like cars because that's all they've ever been given.

Babies, when they're born, don't have a choice in what toys they get or media they consume. The girls get put into the pink blanket and boys the blue. That's not self-determination, that's social conditioning.

I can't remember where I saw it, but there was a study involving people who sought to raise their children away from gender norms. They isolated their children from outside cultural influences. But you know what happened when they provided their kids with toys that we would associate with the opposite gender? Those kids were profoundly uninterested with those toys, preferring the toys of their opposite gender siblings, the toys that would normally be associated with their gender.

 

[Devor]

I mean, we know the following facts:

Men and women have small differences in the brain.

Men and women have large hormonal differences.

Boys and girls behave differently as children.

Gender differences increase in cultures where individuals are healthiest and have the most freedom.

^ Taken together, this information speaks strongly to at least some of differences between men and women being biological, and not just cultural.

 

[X Equestris]

It's also worth noting that biology influences culture to some degree.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

This is just anecdotal so take it for what it's worth (nothing).

I have a seven month old son. His favorite thing in the world is to rough house, fight, and toss his toys. That or chew on them but that's more a function of teething and being a baby. He has a stuffed lion toy. Since he was four months he bit, tossed, and wrestled with it. He never ever cuddles that toy. When he plays with me or his mother he likes to be tossed, tickled, or be wrestled. (Wrestling is usually him lying on our chests and us rolling from side to side grunting.)

I have a niece. At this same age her favorite thing was to cuddle her stuffed toys. She would cry if you fought them. I and her father even encouraged her to wrestle with these toys. Her mom didn't care either way. My niece refused to fight them until she was about a year old or so, after conditioning from her dad and myself.

These two experiences indicate at the least a difference between my son and my niece. However, I think this could also be indicative of differences between genders.

 

[Gryphos]

They give gendered toys to little monkeys who have none of that media or social conditioning, and they still find that the girls take the doll and the boys take the truck. That speaks again to self-determination and biology.

Again, this is all basic research on the topic. I encourage you to look it up.

I am aware of this study, but I believe it is somewhat flawed for a few reasons. Firstly, it's questionable whether or not the data can be applied to humans, as the large difference in intelligence throws a whole load of spanners in the works. In addition, its conclusions hinge on the assumption that the monkey babies aren't also subject to social conditioning within the monkeys' 'society'. How are we to know that the adult monkeys don't try to instill feminine and masculine tendencies in their children?

I can't remember where I saw it, but there was a study involving people who sought to raise their children away from gender norms. They isolated their children from outside cultural influences. But you know what happened when they provided their kids with toys that we would associate with the opposite gender? Those kids were profoundly uninterested with those toys, preferring the toys of their opposite gender siblings, the toys that would normally be associated with their gender.

Single case studies are rarely reliable enough to be used as evidence, but if we ignore that for a moment, your example doesn't take into account the possibility of genuine personal preference. Perhaps the girl happened to like the girl toys and the boy boy toys. I'm not saying that no girl would ever naturally like playing with dolls – many would, and many boys would, too. It's all about the individual, but our society currently tries to forcefully instill set preferences in boys and girls regardless of their individual tastes.

I mean, we know the following facts:

Men and women have small differences in the brain.

On average, yes, they do.

Men and women have large hormonal differences.

To variable levels, yes.

Boys and girls behave differently as children.

Uhuh, for reasons I've already explained. Social conditioning and environmental influence. Or, individual personal preference.

Gender differences increase in cultures where individuals are healthiest and have the most freedom.

Freedom does not equal an absence of societal influence. It just means that societal influence will come in more subtle ways than flat out propaganda.

 

[Ireth]

Jumping on the anecdote bandwagon here... I have a four-year-old brother who absolutely adores cars, trucks and tractors. He has more toys with motors and wheels than I can count. At the same time, he has a baby doll that he carries around with him, often to daycare and when we go out shopping, and he loves getting his nails painted -- both fingernails and toenails -- and wearing sparkly hairspray and lip gloss. He also gets into my mom's makeup and tries to put it on himself.

 

[Devor]

I am aware of this study, but I believe it is somewhat flawed for a few reasons. Firstly, it's questionable whether or not the data can be applied to humans, as the large difference in intelligence throws a whole load of spanners in the works. In addition, its conclusions hinge on the assumption that the monkey babies aren't also subject to social conditioning within the monkeys' 'society'. How are we to know that the adult monkeys don't try to instill feminine and masculine tendencies in their children?

A monkey is going to teach their babies to like dolls and trucks?

On average, yes, they do.


To variable levels, yes.

So on average, shouldn't they behave differently as well?

Uhuh, for reasons I've already explained. Social conditioning and environmental influence.

I don't really find those reasons compelling. I don't think the research supports it. I think that if the differences were cultural, the evidence to support that statement would be pretty plain. I mean, you're arguing against a lot of facts instead of with them. Wouldn't it be fairly easy to find children who were raised differently and show they that they behave differently along these gender lines as well? But I've never seen anyone make those kinds of claims.

Freedom does not equal an absence of societal influence. It just means that societal influence will come in more subtle ways than flat out propaganda.

Sure. But that doesn't explain why the differences would increase. And when paired with other evidence, media as an explanation doesn't really pan out. Men and women behave more differently in the US than in Egypt because of the toys their parents make them play with? That doesn't make sense when compared with the other immense societal differences between those countries.

Surely being forced to wear a veil would produce a bigger difference than playing with a Barbie doll?

 

[Devor]

Jumping on the anecdote bandwagon here... I have a four-year-old brother who absolutely adores cars, trucks and tractors. He has more toys with motors and wheels than I can count. At the same time, he has a baby doll that he carries around with him, often to daycare and when we go out shopping, and he loves getting his nails painted -- both fingernails and toenails -- and wearing sparkly hairspray and lip gloss. He also gets into my mom's makeup and tries to put it on himself.

The truck is a gender difference. The rest isn't (well, depending).

Question: Does he talk to his doll? Girls usually do and boys usually don't.

 

[Ireth]

The truck is a gender difference. The rest isn't (well, depending).

Question: Does he talk to his doll? Girls usually do and boys usually don't.

I don't see how the makeup/nail polish is not a gender difference while a truck is. And yes, he does talk to his doll. And feeds it, burps it, puts it down for naps... the whole shebang.

 

[Mythopoet]

I can't remember where I saw it, but there was a study involving people who sought to raise their children away from gender norms. They isolated their children from outside cultural influences. But you know what happened when they provided their kids with toys that we would associate with the opposite gender? Those kids were profoundly uninterested with those toys, preferring the toys of their opposite gender siblings, the toys that would normally be associated with their gender.

Given my experience with my siblings (I'm the oldest of 5 and I was 10 years old when #3 was born, I have 2 brothers and 2 sisters) and my own children (I have 5, 2 girls and 3 boys) I can easily believe this. I've never pushed my children in any particular direction, I always been happy to watch them and see what they gravitate toward and encourage their interests. I've never discouraged the boys from playing with the girly stuff in our house or the girls from playing with the boyish stuff in our house. What I've noticed is that the boys are decidedly boys and the girls are decidedly girls.

It's not that there isn't a large amount of overlap, because there is. And they all have interests that they all share too. (For some god forsaken reason they ALL like watching stampy cat Let's Play videos on youtube for like... hours.) But the things that they most strongly identify with themselves tend to be less shared. My boys are decidedly male and my girls are decidedly female even though they are each unique individuals.

I have a daughter who developed a deep love of all things pink and sparkly and princessy even though she was never pushed in that direction. (Indeed, I hate pink and I'm constantly telling her to be less vain and less delicate.)

I have a son who loves nothing so much as defeating bosses in fighting games. Particularly in RPGs where he can feel like a big hero. (He practically forced his father and I to let him start playing our MMORPGs at a young age because he would watch us, fascinated, and became desperate to play himself. We didn't push him, he just naturally became attracted to them.)

Those two have always been extremely close because they're only a year apart, but they naturally developed very different personalities. When they play together it tends to end in shouting matches because, for example, Fiona is trying to build a viable settlement in Minecraft and Maedhros is setting her sheep on fire. When they play dress up together it goes back and forth between them fighting evil side by side as Power Rangers to Maedhros the knight protecting Fiona the pretty, pretty princess.

So my experience is that boys gravitate naturally to boyish things and girls gravitate naturally to girlish things, and sometimes those are the things they see as most close to their personal identity but there's also significant ground that is openly engaging to both.

 

[Devor]

I don't see how the makeup/nail polish is not a gender difference while a truck is.

I mean it could be. But dress up is usually gender neutral at that age. And having a favorite toy that they keep with them is almost expected. And the color-coding is at least partially a social construct.

Talking to a doll, though, is uncommon for a boy. Boys usually have a degree of separation from their play.

 

[Gryphos]

A monkey is going to teach their babies to like dolls and trucks?

Of course not. But think about it, trucks as objects are mechanical, with moving parts, which can be manipulated, and thus relate to visuospatial tasks and ability. Those, even at a primitive level, I can certainly seen being instilled by primate society. And dolls are of a form that is roughly comparable to apes physiology, and thus the monkeys can interact with them in the same way female humans are encouraged to.

So on average, shouldn't they behave differently as well?

Indeed, but as I've already stated, the differences in brain structure can be caused by environmental influence. As to hormones, they can only account for so much, and I believe that factors I've already discussed can have a much larger and overriding impact on personality.

I don't really find those reasons compelling. I don't think the research supports it. I think that if the differences were cultural, the evidence to support that statement would be pretty plain. I mean, you're arguing against a lot of facts instead of with them. Wouldn't it be fairly easy to find children who were raised differently and show they that they behave differently along these gender lines as well? But I've never seen anyone make those kinds of claims.

As far as I know every culture today instills masculine traits in boys and feminine traits in girls. Remember this isn't just about the household, this is about whole societies and cultures, so in order to truly test this issue, one would have to have an entire culture condition its children along different gender lines, which hasn't been done, and arguably shouldn't be done due to ethical issues of instilling any kind of gender roles.

Sure. But that doesn't explain why the differences would increase. And when paired with other evidence, media as an explanation doesn't really pan out. Men and women behave more differently in the US than in Egypt because of the toys their parents make them play with? That doesn't make sense when compared with the other immense societal differences between those countries.

Surely being forced to wear a veil would produce a bigger difference than playing with a Barbie doll?

See, again, I'm not entirely sure you're even right about this. Ive tried researching the matter, and haven't found anything to indicate a greater gender difference in Western countries. I can't really debate the reason for something I'm not even sure is true.


But I want to make what I see as a vital point. Rather, I want to pose a vital question, is it good that there are differences between genders? Do you want there to be biologically-caused psychological differences coded in the X and Y chromosomes that defines a person for the rest of their life?

Me? f*ck no! I would hate for that to be true. If it were true, I would still despise the division in toy stores between boy toys and girl toys. If I had children I would raise them gender-neutrally, not forcing dolls on the girl or cars on the boy, even though apparently their biology means they're just meant to play with them. I would let them be who they wanted to be.

I want to believe that men and women are the same, because society would be better if everyone believed that.

 

[Mythopoet]

I want to believe that men and women are the same, because society would be better if everyone believed that.

I disagree. As Madeleine L'Engle demonstrates in A Wrinkle in Time, "Like and equal are not the same thing".

The problem with current discussions about gender is that they are trying to force both genders to be "alike" or "the same" instead of actually treating them as "equal". Our society tends to think that if you can just make two things the same, that will make them equal. Unfortunately, that's not how it works, especially with human beings.

What would really make the world a better place is if we could actually accept that two things can be unalike but equally valuable.

 

[Gryphos]

I disagree. As Madeleine L'Engle demonstrates in A Wrinkle in Time, "Like and equal are not the same thing".

The problem with current discussions about gender is that they are trying to force both genders to be "alike" or "the same" instead of actually treating them as "equal". Our society tends to think that if you can just make two things the same, that will make them equal. Unfortunately, that's not how it works, especially with human beings.

What would really make the world a better place is if we could actually accept that two things can be unalike but equally valuable.

Ah yes, 'separate but equal'. Isn't that a tried and tested philosophy which only leads to good things.

In all seriousness, if our society defines men and women as being inherently different, it encourages and forces men and women into different roles in society. You end up forcing men to take up masculine professions and women feminine ones. You are creating gender roles! IN our society men and women should feel free to pursue whatever path they choose in life, and a philosophy of 'different but equal' does not encourage that.