Dexter's Sister and female characters, * lets keep it CIVIL!! *

[ascanius]

So I have mentioned many times my thoughts on female characters and the sexes in general. I think males and females are different and should be written differently. I don't think any character should be written in such a way that their sex can be changed with the use of different pronouns. So instead of going with what usually happens on threads of this topic and state my beliefs, I am going to give an example.

So lately I've been watching Dexter and I think there is an unoticed character that is worth mention in regards to how people struggle with Female characters. I think Debra Morgan, Jennifer Carpenter who should have won an award for her role, is a great example of a female character with agency, who kicks ass without being a man with boobs. I often find myself more interested in her story than dexter's, dexter's doesn't really change, it's kinda to the point. Let me explain.

In one way Debra Morgan plays into the stereotypes of a woman. She is very emotional and often makes choices based off those emotions. She deeply wants to have a meaningfull relationship with her brother, she has daddy issues and regrets not having a meaningful relationship with her father. She needs to be rescued. She really wants the approval of others.

At the same time she doesn't, Even though she is emotional, it is part of who she is and not a weakness, same for all the other stereotypes she may fit them but she is not the stereotype. She may want the approval of others but at the same time she has no problem swearing up a storm and looking like she is ready to go square dancing, it's her look. Her character is not a character that one could simply change the pronouns and have a male character, it would take a lot more work to make it convincing.

So what are your examples of a Female character that others should emulate in their writing?

Remember lets keep this thread Civil and useful for everyone's benifit.

 

[Feo Takahari]

My gold standard for characterization rules is whether they could produce the people around me. (Well, most of the people--I'm not sure anyone wants to read about my boring landlord who responded to everything with a platitude.) Anyway, when people talk about how they don't want "men with tits," either they talk about people who're like tit-bearing individuals I've met, or they talk about people who I've never met regardless of tit status. If you're trying to push what women should be like, that's one thing, but if you want to portray what some women actually are like, you have a lot of leeway.

 

[WooHooMan]

I think that you shouldn't care that much about going against or fitting into stereotypes.
Also, I think a character can fit into an archetype while still being a good character.

I'm doing a story that deals with gender and I've noticed that most of my favorite characters in fiction (both men and women) tend to fall in line with gender roles to some degree. Whenever I see a character that is clearly the writing saying "look at this, I'm defying gender norms", it just feels lame and kind of condescending to me.
I don't know what this attitude says about me but I'm not all that concerned.

 

[Gryphos]

It's one thing to state whether or not someone thinks men and women are different, but I always feel there's another, much more important question. Why? What do you think is the cause of this difference?

 

[Guy]

In one way Debra Morgan plays into the stereotypes of a woman. She is very emotional and often makes choices based off those emotions. She deeply wants to have a meaningfull relationship with her brother, she has daddy issues and regrets not having a meaningful relationship with her father. She needs to be rescued. She really wants the approval of others.

At the same time she doesn't, Even though she is emotional, it is part of who she is and not a weakness, same for all the other stereotypes she may fit them but she is not the stereotype. She may want the approval of others but at the same time she has no problem swearing up a storm and looking like she is ready to go square dancing, it's her look.

In other words, she's a human being.

 

[Trick]

It's one thing to state whether or not someone thinks men and women are different, but I always feel there's another, much more important question. Why? What do you think is the cause of this difference?

Biology: Chromosomes, Hormones, Build, Percentage of water in the body, sexual preference via nature, etc.

Psychology: Imposed (or chosen) social norms, developmental rates at young ages (which is also a part of biology), sexual preference via nurture, etc.

Those things being said, no one person is exactly like another and no one person is exactly average. Thus, write all characters, regardless of gender, as unique humans. If you choose to use some of the above in the formation of that character, great; if not, great.

I am, feel and live the way I do for a variety of reasons as is the case for everyone. I might write about someone whom I feel is the opposite of me in every way and yet that character could be male, as I am. I could also write about a character very much like myself and they could be a woman. My brother-in-law has a similar relationship with his girlfriend as I do with my wife except the personalities are gender swapped in a lot of ways. We are all happy.

As writers we create from the ground up or use existing people as influences or both. As fantasy writers, we have even more leeway (in so far as we can write outside the average more readily without fearing readership loss as much) and that is awesome.

Basically, the woman on my left and the man on my right may both be very different from me in the same or different ways or the opposite could be true because humans are as varied as the stars in the sky, if not more so.

 

[X Equestris]

Biology: Chromosomes, Hormones, Build, Percentage of water in the body, sexual preference via nature, etc.

Psychology: Imposed (or chosen) social norms, developmental rates at young ages (which is also a part of biology), sexual preference via nurture, etc.

Those things being said, no one person is exactly like another and no one person is exactly average. Thus, write all characters, regardless of gender, as unique humans. If you choose to use some of the above in the formation of that character, great; if not, great.

I am, feel and live the way I do for a variety of reasons as is the case for everyone. I might write about someone whom I feel is the opposite of me in every way and yet that character could be male, as I am. I could also write about a character very much like myself and they could be a woman. My brother-in-law has a similar relationship with his girlfriend as I do with my wife except the personalities are gender swapped in a lot of ways. We are all happy.

As writers we create from the ground up or use existing people as influences or both. As fantasy writers, we have even more leeway (in so far as we can write outside the average more readily without fearing readership loss as much) and that is awesome.

I think that sums it up pretty well. Each character should be unique, just like real people.

 

[Penpilot]

First, if you've just started watching Dexter, I'd advise you to stop at season 3. If you watch to the end, you'll be filled with nerd rage of epic proportions.

And yes Deb is an awesome character. Other female characters I'd say that are worth studying are every single female character from Buffy and Angel. Cordilia has one of the most epic arcs in the series. You go from hating her to loving her to loving her even more.

 

[Steerpike]

Cordelia's character arc really was great.

 

[spectre]

A female character, who isn't mandated to her social fate -- see what I done there. Tough. Most literature I've read hasn't regarded sexes to where it was a discordant portrayal so I have no comparison to the chosen "toon". Rainbow Brite, really. She is wholly female in her role, without being brainwashed, and she is a badass with dedicated purpose. If you want more depth though I still have limited examples because Most of the fantasy I've read has been world minded I think or the opposite of what you want. Historical mentions are not mentioned though -- see how I did that? Lol, sorry I'll quit being a dork.

Well in R. Jordan it's Queen Morgase. She is rounded, but she isn't biased. She knows how to reapproach a subject, and she remains lady like qualities that are tailored. She would be my favorite. Other's though might be Dori from finding Nemo. She's flawed, she's triumphant, brave, and endearing without any sexism. Winona Ryder in Bram Stoker's Dracula too because she is also flawed and feminine where she isn't perturbed. Her decisions are freely made and she isn't a whore like her undead friend --a little reverse humor. I really want to provide you with a list though because I'd never have thought someone would bring it up in the fantasy genre. Game of Thrones, it's obviously John's mother who dies adamant to her sequester and she is like Morgase in that fashion. Shrek's wife! Who changes, is discriminated for it, and I don't think is bogged down with superman traits, she is a strong woman-ogre. I also like the Viragon Sister's in K.C. May's Kinshield saga because the truth is, some women are butch --no sexual reference implied.

Biology: Chromosomes, Hormones, Build, Percentage of water in the body, sexual preference via nature, etc.

Psychology: Imposed (or chosen) social norms, developmental rates at young ages (which is also a part of biology), sexual preference via nurture, etc.

Those things being said, no one person is exactly like another and no one person is exactly average. Thus, write all characters, regardless of gender, as unique humans. If you choose to use some of the above in the formation of that character, great; if not, great.

majority=average. A little standard defiance therein for you: just that.

 

[Steerpike]

Majority does not necessarily reflect the average. If I have a population of five, three of whom are six feet tall and two of whom are five feet tall, the average height is 5.6 feet, but the majority of people are six feet tall.

 

[Penpilot]

Cordelia's character arc really was great.

I think one of the best parts about it was that it was unexpected, but so thoroughly earned.

 

[spectre]

Majority does not necessarily reflect the average. If I have a population of five, three of whom are six feet tall...

A vast majority of people struggle and/or dislike math. Psychology is not mathematical beyond it's distortions or measureability, therefore the averages in psychology and math better represent the dichotomy of the electromagnetic spectrum's making tangible concrete subjects and absolutism which are the topics of debate.

 

[Steerpike]

A vast majority of people struggle and/or dislike math. Psychology is not mathematical beyond it's distortions or measureability, therefore the averages in psychology and math better represent the dichotomy of the electromagnetic spectrum's making tangible concrete subjects and absolutism which are the topics of debate.

This post doesnt make any sense to me.

However, even if we want to assume there is an average represented by majority for a given psychological trait, when we're dealing with human beings we are talking about a large number of traits that vary along a continuum between any two individuals. I think the point about not finding individuals who embody broadly some kind of perceived average still stands. It may be useful to talk about statistically, but it falls apart on the individual level.

 

[Gryphos]

Her character is not a character that one could simply change the pronouns and have a male character, it would take a lot more work to make it convincing.

To you, perhaps.

Personally, if a pronoun dictated that a character was male, I would have no difficulty thinking they were male regardless of their actions or personality. The author wrote them to be a male, so they are male, there's no 'convincing' about it.


But I would like to point something out. The fact that some people believe that women or men acting in certain ways or having certain personalities is unnatural or unusual is a massive indictment on our society, the social conditioning of which manufactured those beliefs in the first place. The fact that these psychological differences do exist on average across the gender line is terrible! Whether they exist or not, I hope we can all agree that they shouldn't exist. We should all be free individuals with our own unique personalities, not defined by what's between our legs.

 

[Devor]

The fact that these psychological differences do exist on average across the gender line is terrible! Whether they exist or not, I hope we can all agree that they shouldn't exist. We should all be free individuals with our own unique personalities, not defined by what's between our legs.

But so many of those differences are biological. Men have bigger brains because they have bigger bodies. But did you know the difference is all in grey brain matter, meaning that women have a higher percentage of white brain matter in their brains? White brain matter is the short-cut pathways that lets you process a decision quickly. It's the part of the brain that represents experience. Based solely on that factual biological information, what kind of impact would you expect that has on the psychological differences between men and women?

I mean, just think about it.

 

[Guy]

Why do so many people seem to have so much difficulty writing female characters? It's a fairly hot topic. I don't recall ever seeing a thread about the difficulty of writing male characters, but I've lost count of the threads about the challenges of writing female characters. How is it any more difficult than writing any other character? Personally, I don't think it is, yet so many writers are convinced it is. Why?

 

[Gryphos]

But so many of those differences are biological. Men have bigger brains because they have bigger bodies. But did you know the difference is all in grey brain matter, meaning that women have a higher percentage of white brain matter in their brains? White brain matter is the short-cut pathways that lets you process a decision quickly. It's the part of the brain that represents experience. Based solely on that factual biological information, what kind of impact would you expect that has on the psychological differences between men and women?

I mean, just think about it.

This argument hinges on the principle that somehow the brain develops fully formed and planned by our DNA, which is false. The brain develops affected by our environmental influences and, again, social conditioning. If males are conditioned from an early age to participate in logical or spatial awareness tasks more than females, their brains will naturally develop to be better suited to those things, and vice versa with regards to females and emotional awareness. The brain doesn't exist in its own little world, unaffected by anything other than biology. It changes and adapts.

If anyone's interested, here's a study conducted on whether or not and to what degree our environment can change our brains:http://psych.brookes.ac.uk/publications/DevSci2007.pdf
tl;dr - it can

Now, so if these psychological differences are present (which, statistically, they are), and if these differences are ingrained into our psyche due to environment and social conditioning (which a whole swathe of psychological experimentation and study has concluded is a major, defining influence [note, not the only influence, but by far the most important one, capable of overriding any biological influence]), then something is terribly wrong with our society.

 

[Devor]

Now, so if these psychological differences are present (which, statistically, they are), and if these differences are ingrained into our psyche due to environment and social conditioning (which a whole swathe of psychological experimentation and study has concluded is a major, defining influence [note, not the only influence, but by far the most important one, capable of overriding any biological influence]), then something is terribly wrong with our society.

Psychologists use what's called the Big Five personality traits as a baseline for measuring behavior. They are openness, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism. Psychologists measure these traits in countries world wide. And somehow the gender differences on these five traits are biggest in wealthy, healthy, more egalitarian societies. That doesn't speak to social conditioning. Quite the opposite. That speaks to biology and self-determination.

 

[WooHooMan]

Why do so many people seem to have so much difficulty writing female characters? It's a fairly hot topic. I don't recall ever seeing a thread about the difficulty of writing male characters, but I've lost count of the threads about the challenges of writing female characters. How is it any more difficult than writing any other character? Personally, I don't think it is, yet so many writers are convinced it is. Why?

You answered your own question: people go on and on about writing female characters because representation of women in fiction is a hot topic.
To answer your other query: you do see threads about writing male characters but we just refer to them as "characters". Women characters are somehow different and need to be called "female characters" specifically.
I think the general attitude is that male is the default while female is special/exceptional.

I agree with you that writing women is no harder than writing men.