Ditching Romance and Sexual Tension

[Mindfire]

Love stories tend to take too much away from a fantasy novel, especially when every movie lately is about a women torn between two men (Hunger Games and Twilight, though I never watched Twilight). The novel slips from the unimaginable to the mundane. Our lives our full of love triangles, can we please get back to epic fantasy?

Sorry about that. When I conjure Twilight I get irritable. I've seen some love stories done well, but only when it doesn't over power the story I want to read. I think that when the story is about "Two guys and a girl......" I immediately lose interest (just like those who hate the prologue ). Make sure you story is about "A women, trusting only her daggers and wits, uncovers a plot that will bring chaos to her city." That is a story I want to read. If she bumps into some hobo in the middle of the story that is attracted to her, fine. Let's just see if she is capable at her task.

I can sympathize with your first paragraph. Your second paragraph sounds like its addressing somebody else's story... Um...thanks?

 

[Ankari]

I can sympathize with your first paragraph. Your second paragraph sounds like its addressing somebody else's story... Um...thanks?

Actually, no, its not. I just took commons themes and used them as examples. The "two guys and a girl...." is what you see in every PG-13 movie or any of those YA books. If I offended anyone, it was not my intention. Sorry.

 

[Penpilot]

Love stories tend to take too much away from a fantasy novel, especially when every movie lately is about a women torn between two men (Hunger Games and Twilight, though I never watched Twilight). The novel slips from the unimaginable to the mundane. Our lives our full of love triangles, can we please get back to epic fantasy?

Are you saying love or rather a story containing lover or about love is mundane? If you are then I think you've been exposed to the wrong stuff. When done right, a love sub-plot can add all sorts of drama and tension to a story. It's one of the significant personal things a hero can fight for. IMHO without something personal, not necessarily love, at stake, a hero's quest to save the world or defeat a great evil becomes a play by play of a DnD game and all I hear are dice rolling. Personally, I can't imagine something like Lord of the Rings without the Aragorn/Arwen sub-plot or even the Sam/Rosie bits. They ground the story and make them emotionally accessible. But what do I know...

 

[Ankari]

Are you saying love or rather a story containing lover or about love is mundane? If you are then I think you've been exposed to the wrong stuff. When done right, a love sub-plot can add all sorts of drama and tension to a story. It's one of the significant personal things a hero can fight for. IMHO without something personal, not necessarily love, at stake, a hero's quest to save the world or defeat a great evil becomes a play by play of a DnD game and all I hear are dice rolling. Personally, I can't imagine something like Lord of the Rings without the Aragorn/Arwen sub-plot or even the Sam/Rosie bits. They ground the story and make them emotionally accessible. But what do I know...

As I said, I am not opposed to love in a fantasy novel, but I do hate it when it consumes the story. Isn't that just a romance novel set in a fantasy world? I have seen some stories written with love or romance in the book, hell, I'm even a fan of Jacqueline Carey's books. But even throughout her books love took the backseat to the epic fantasy story. I even loved (ironic word, huh?) how she portrayed the heroine, Phedre, in her first trilogy.

But take a story like Twilight and you and I know what I mean about love over powering the fantasy story. This, I hate. Another thing to consider: remember the movie Braveheart? Isn't it selfish of William Wallace to ask the entire people of his homeland to fight because his wife died? Why did he suddenly get interested in the freedom of his people only after he suffered a personal loss? Isn't that like a once wealthy man suddenly fighting for the rights of the poor after he goes bankrupt? Where were his morals before he went bankrupt?

I go off on a tangent, but I hope I got my point across clearly enough.

 

[Ghost]

Also, I think you have the wrong idea of platonic, or (more likely) I'm using the wrong word. I was envisioning a brothers-in-arms, "I've got your back" kind of thing.

I wondered about that, but used the word "buddies" instead. I have difficulty imagining two comrades suddenly being married in the next book. They have a basis of trust, but it's still an odd leap. Of course, I haven't read the books. It's hard to tell. I'd do whatever feels natural then figure out what works and what doesn't.

If she bumps into some hobo in the middle of the story that is attracted to her, fine. Let's just see if she is capable at her task.

Lol, what does this even mean?

And why does anybody think Twilight fans are going to flock to Mindfire's books? I mean no disrespect to Mindfire--in fact, he'll probably consider it a compliment--but his approach looks nothing like Twilight. I don't get why he wants to troll Twilight fans or why Ankari thinks the audience for a YA paranormal romance is the same as the audience for epic fantasy. They're different subgenres and different expectations. There may be a little bit of overlap in the readership, but I don't think it's enough to cause worry.

 

[The Dark One]

Anyway, the people in question here have great powers of self-control. A very mission-focused attitude that I assume would develop quickly when 90% of everything that lives with you in your home environment wants to kill you, herbivores and carnivores alike.

You're just making it worse! If I'm reading about people with great self-control, I want to see them tested...maybe eventually lose that self-control through the power of the growing attraction.

 

[Christopher Wright]

Another thing to consider: remember the movie Braveheart? Isn't it selfish of William Wallace to ask the entire people of his homeland to fight because his wife died? Why did he suddenly get interested in the freedom of his people only after he suffered a personal loss? Isn't that like a once wealthy man suddenly fighting for the rights of the poor after he goes bankrupt? Where were his morals before he went bankrupt?

Maybe he didn't have morals. It's frequently considered hypocrisy to suddenly be concerned about a cause after it affects you directly, but you can also call it "a transitional period of rapid learning."

 

[Steerpike]

Mindfire:

Here is my thought on the original issue, and it echoes some of what has been said previously. I believe it comes down to how thoroughly you intend to represent the lives of the characters. For many Fantasy novels, the intent is not to represent a detailed account of the character's live over a given time period. It may be that you are following them through action and adventure and that's all. The characters might be assumed to have other lives outside of what you are dramatizing, but it doesn't have to be shown.

On the other hand, some stories carefully follow every aspect of a character's life over the course of events in the story. If this is a relatively short period of time, then romantic issues may not arise and I don't think anyone would think it odd. If it takes place over a great period of time, however, such as fantasy novels that span years, and if you are providing a very detailed look at the lives of the characters, then I think the lack of romantic issues does start to seem unusual. At the least, you'd want to explain why there are none. Love and romantic feelings are a fundamental and very nearly universal aspect of human life and the human experience. If you have a story that details all aspects of a character's life, and it follows the character over a substantial length of time, then lack of romantic elements without explanation would make the character very unrealistic to me.

 

[Steerpike]

Maybe he didn't have morals. It's frequently considered hypocrisy to suddenly be concerned about a cause after it affects you directly, but you can also call it "a transitional period of rapid learning."

Or he didn't have anything to lose anymore. A person may agree with one side on such a dangerous matter, but with a wife or family to consider may refrain from acting out of fear of putting the loved ones in harm's way. Once the basis for that fear is eliminated, there is no reason for restraint.

 

[SeverinR]

I think sexuality is a spice to a story. In fantasy it might or might not be a central issue to the story.
You have the main plot, and the love or sexual part of my stories is a smaller sub plot, or even only hinted at.

Except in a male only story, such as a battlefield, ship at sea, or other reasons women aren't present, men will notice women, and women will notice men, even if they aren't in the same class. Although it would be true love when a elegant high class person falls for a dirty working class person, unless it happens to be bath day. Working class tended to work, and not worry about how clean they were or smelled.
Very few people can clean a horse stall and still look beautiful to someone passing by.
Also in winter, the working class and lower probably wore most of their clothes to keep warm, which means they can't be washed or even aired out much of the time.
I truly can't imagine what a tavern of working people would smell like at the end of the day. The rich would cover their odor with perfume, not sure if that would be much better.

 

[Kelise]

In one of the book clubs I'm in, during a recent book-picking post, a surprisingly large amount of people agreed they have utterly no interest in reading a book (no matter the genre or hype) if it lacks romance. As we're a fairly large group of 50 actives or so, and pick a well-rounded selection of genres from SF from 50 years ago to new release urban fantasy to crime/thriller and then general literature... it was a surprise. Probably over twenty of the main posters agreed they'll put the book down if there's not enough romance.

 

[Mindfire]

In one of the book clubs I'm in, during a recent book-picking post, a surprisingly large amount of people agreed they have utterly no interest in reading a book (no matter the genre or hype) if it lacks romance. As we're a fairly large group of 50 actives or so, and pick a well-rounded selection of genres from SF from 50 years ago to new release urban fantasy to crime/thriller and then general literature... it was a surprise. Probably over twenty of the main posters agreed they'll put the book down if there's not enough romance.

Why do you think that is? And out of curiosity, what's the male/female ratio in this group?

 

[Ailith]

Why do you think that is?

I think that the desire to be known and loved is one of the most powerful desires that humans have. Readers want to experience that through the protagonist, just as they experience adventure, growth, resilience, insight, and knowledge and whatever else. In reality nobody can truly know someone and love them perfectly, but that only makes people want it more. So when readers see that protagonists have a shot at “true love,” that is a huge motivation to get invested in the story and keep turning pages. Whether it all works out or not, love makes protagonists more human and stories more beautiful, meaningful, or tragic.

That being said, there’s nothing worse than reading something that’s overly-cheesy and unrealistic. Or stories that sacrifice main plotlines and character development to over-do the schmooze.

And that’s the difficult part in writing: finding the balance.

Also, while romance can be a powerful motivator and element of the story, I don’t think it’s required to make a great story.

 

[Ophiucha]

I think people value relationships more than, necessarily, romance. A relationship doesn't have to be romantic. Look at, for example, the TV show Supernatural. The primary relationship in that show is between two brothers. Not that half the fandom doesn't choose to interpret that as romantic, but the fact is, the show does fine without any long-lasting romances (indeed, the only recurring romances, one for each brother, were received poorly by the fans). People enjoy strong friendships, parental bonds, sibling bonds, and other sorts of romantic bonds (such as pre-established couples), but because the mainstream media tends to focus so much on falling in love, I think we're sort of used to calling our love of close relationships "romance" because that's what it almost always is. Particularly in novels.

Personally, I find most "falling in love" plots to be a bit... shoe-horned in at the last minute. I mean, you read it once, and people falling in love on the battlefield is sexy and romantic. You read it eighty times, and you just start thinking: "Jesus, people, your friends are dying, have a shag tomorrow for goodness' sake."

 

[Kelise]

Why do you think that is? And out of curiosity, what's the male/female ratio in this group?

I have utterly no idea why - not being 'into' romance that much. I found it quite odd that it was such a popular opinion. I was actually annoyed and bored by the romance in the book we were talking about. Makes me a little worried also since there isn't much romance - if any - in my series so far.

The last time we did a poll, the ratio was about 65% female - but that was back over Christmas so may not be accurate. Still, we have a decent selection of males. I'd have to go back to the thread and see how many of the comments were from males.

 

[Mindfire]

I have utterly no idea why - not being 'into' romance that much. I found it quite odd that it was such a popular opinion. I was actually annoyed and bored by the romance in the book we were talking about. Makes me a little worried also since there isn't much romance - if any - in my series so far.

The last time we did a poll, the ratio was about 65% female - but that was back over Christmas so may not be accurate. Still, we have a decent selection of males. I'd have to go back to the thread and see how many of the comments were from males.

I don't want to stereotype people, but I'm betting most if not all of those comments were from females. My research (on google) suggests females generally care more about romantic subplots than males do. See this article for a Star Wars related example. The question becomes, if my book is aimed at a primarily male audience (and I'd say it is), does that give me more license to ignore romantic subplots? Something to ponder.

 

[Penpilot]

I don't want to stereotype people, but I'm betting most if not all of those comments were from females. My research (on google) suggests females generally care more about romantic subplots than males do. See this article for a Star Wars related example. The question becomes, if my book is aimed at a primarily male audience (and I'd say it is), does that give me more license to ignore romantic subplots? Something to ponder.

I don't know if it matters either way. I wonder how many guys in general are willing to admit that romance matters even in an anonymous survey.

I'm going try to tread lightly and not stick a foot in the mouth on the next comment, but if I do, feel free to hit me in the nose with the rolled up newspaper and sorry in advance. If a series of books involving guys and gals has zero romance in it, I think people --maybe just me-- may start to wonder why and start drawing their own conclusions as to why hunky-dude-one doesn't check out any of the curvy-girls but seems to love hanging out with all the dudes, grunting and wrestling and crossing swords. IMHO if romance is ignored for too long the world will feel unbalanced and readers will balance it for you and in ways probably not intended.

 

[Caged Maiden]

That's the problem with having all good-looking MCs. Write ugly bastards and saggy women and no one will want a love scene to happen, trust me.

 

[Phin Scardaw]

That's the problem with having all good-looking MCs. Write ugly bastards and saggy women and no one will want a love scene to happen, trust me.

I think that would make for a good Writing Challenge, don't you? Try to write a scene in which such a love scene DOES happen - but try to write it so the reader wants to finish it, not throw it away!

"It's like a car crash! It's horrible, but I can't look away!!!"

 

[Ophiucha]

If a series of books involving guys and gals has zero romance in it, I think people --maybe just me-- may start to wonder why and start drawing their own conclusions as to why hunky-dude-one doesn't check out any of the curvy-girls but seems to love hanging out with all the dudes, grunting and wrestling and crossing swords.

Knowing the internet, this will likely just increase your readership. Bromances with sexual overtones are "in" right now.

In all seriousness, this viewpoint is kind of... sad? Like, I went a solid year of my life with nothing but male friends and never so much as crushed on a single one of 'em, let alone started up a relationship. Not because they weren't attractive or I was into somebody else, I just never ended up liking any of them like that. My main group of friends in high school was three girls and a guy, and none of us ever liked the guy, and as far as I know, he never had a crush on any of us. Not saying it never happens - of course it does - but in a group of three guys and a girl, there's really no guarantee any of them would do anything more than make a couple of sexist jokes before moving on to the barwenches in the local tavern.