It gets kind of Dark.

[Nihilium 7th]

Yeah. I think I should explain the kind of city he is from. The character in question is "Lictor of the Law" meaning he's in charge dishing out punishment and what not. The city he lives in is a what you would call a "Socialist Utopia". Everyone gets a the same amount of money from the royal coffers depending on which level of the city they are from. The "lowest" in this city lives like gentry compared to almost every other country. In addition to that it is an extremely liberal city in terms of sex compared to lets say America today. Homosexuality is the norm, a person is considered an adult the moment they can naturally produce children and go through a coming of age ceremony; and polygamy is not only legal but encouraged. A sexual deviant would have to do something extremely sick and irredeemable (Necrophilia or Pedophilia are examples.) Prostitution in this city is seen as deplorable in this city because it is different from working in a brothel or a sex temple. Prostitutes basically not only get money from the 'Coffers' but go around gaining extra money by servicing those who are married and don't want to get caught in a brothel.
Not sure if that synopsis helps.

As for the father. His children are the last family he has because his tribe was killed because of a power they genetically had. Those who captured him (This takes part in a different city than the one above) wanted slaves who possessed their power so he had him impart a piece of his soul to girls(having sex imparts the greatest amount ones souls) old enough to get pregnant but young enough to be brainwashed. In the process both the girls and their children gained the power.

I do plan for the book to be sold as a fantasy book akin to ASOIF or the Book of The New Sun series. So dark and not so much from younger readers.

 

[Russ]

I do plan for the book to be sold as a fantasy book akin to ASOIF or the Book of The New Sun series. So dark and not so much from younger readers.

I would be greatly surprised is a traditional publisher would buy it. If you self pub it is going to be tough to find a market.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I would go further and say I'd be greatly surprised if anyone at all wanted to read it.

I think this entire project is ludicrous, and I'm sorry if that offends you. Realistically, if I read this blurb I'm forming of this book in my mind, I'd consider it not a fantasy tale for reader enjoyment, but another unimpressively blatant example of writer masturbation--a term I use for when self-indulgence becomes the premise of the novel. Not the self-indulgence of a character, but of the writer himself.

I remember the first time I thought of it in this way--before I ever considered publishing myself. I was at a con and got cornered by a man selling his book. While my friend and I tried to politely feign interest and take his cute little post cards, we were really trying to leave his presence immediately. The book was, get this, written in elvish. If that isn't a case of writer self-gratification without a care for his reader, I don't know what is. And I'm sorry to say, I think that's what you're doing here too.

The reason I feel compelled and authorized to speak so frankly (and I doubt you'll want to hear anything of my advice again in the future), is because what you're doing is offensive. This concept is all your choices. None of it is necessary, and that's what makes it self-pleasure. The very concept that a person "could" rape someone if they didn't want to is ludicrous! I've known a fair amount of men who have been pushy bastards, but when I stuck a fist in their chest and said, "I'm ****ing serious, back off," they got the message. Most of the time their sails deflate before my words come out. And to couple that with pedophilia? Nonsense. Utter garbage and nonsense. And the worst part of it is that it isn't necessary. At all.

And then to have a rapist enact sexual violence on both male and female prostitutes as a form of punishment...wow, how many people do you feel like alienating? I can't think of a single person who would want to read this.

I think there's plenty of room for dark themes in fiction and fantasy, and I've already mentioned I explored them (and not in some fairy-tale cutesie way, I was pretty raw when I went there) but this is a desperate and hopeless story, irredeemable in my eyes, because the concepts are so far gone, they cannot ever amount to something worth their time in creating. I encourage you to carefully consider how the male anatomy works, how the minds of even immoral persons work, and how people will relate to characters who so obviously aren't sympathetic.

@ the scribes...what the hell is happening around here? We've had too many threads about rape and pedophilia and I'm not okay with this. Why do we continue to see the same question time and again..."is it okay if I make my character a rapist if he had a really good reason to do it?" NO! No it's not okay. Too many women in America have been victims of sexual assault. Many of the men reading are married to those women or are their brothers or fathers. This isn't okay! Sexual assault happens, yes. It isn't as rare as we wish to believe. But stop using it for shock value or to create a world based around sexual deviance. There are so many better ways to make your story dark. I've found dozens! Build a world around another concept, please! And if you MUST go this route, expect to feel the back of my hand by way of this kind of post when you bring it into our forum for the hundredth time. You have all been warned. I don't ever want to discourage asking questions, indeed, I've talked extensively about these items in the past and will continue to do so as far as the question is legitimate, and the writer has respect, but I cannot stomach this.

 

[Russ]

Hear, hear.

 

[Nihilium 7th]

I get where you are coming from and respect your opinion. One of my beta-readers has views very similar to yours. I remember her words being something akin to "The lead up to your most vile scenes are wonderful and in the context of the story make perfect sense, but, I hate the fact you had to go to such extremes."

After reading your post I can already see that you've made up your mind. But let me attempt to explain once more. The pedophile in question raped no one. The four girls in question the youngest of which is 12 were brainwashed from birth to think getting pregnant by the father was their duty (Let me remind you that in many countries and cultures 12 is the age at which a female becomes a woman.)
As for the rapist. He knows what he does is deplorable and he hates it. Which is why he finds ways to live with himself. This isn't some made up scenario of mine. There are many people in the world who suffer from the same problem. One of the things I try to do in the novel is display that struggle. Not every addict wants to shove a needle in their arm; some serial killers can't control their urges; necrophiliacs can't help that they are attracted to corpses, kleptomaniacs can't stop the urge to steal; and yes even pedophiles are slaves to their psychological make-up. What I try to do is show that not every one who takes part in evil acts is evil; some hate themselves and are told they should hate themselves.
As someone who is more acquainted with the darkness of humanity than majority of the world in ways I hope nobody has to experience; I can empathize with reactions to the matters displayed in my novel, but it is for that same reason I believe books like mine should be written, to hopefully enlighten even one person to the grey nature of life.
Many of the scenes I'm describing are read differently when read in context, especially when read with an open mind. And there are indeed many of the archetypical bad guy/good guy stereotypes in the novel.
One of my other beta-readers (and psychology professor.) told me that the book is "too" real in its portrayal the psychology of the human mind and because of that will not be well received by sheltered or sensitive (naive was the word he used) readers.
Another told me that if I'm in this to make money I'll have to take out every dark scene from the book because people don't want to see the darkness in the world or themselves. But as I said before, I will be softening the descriptions and portrayals in the novel just enough so that it will be bearable for people of thinner skin to read. I will not however change the overlying theme even if only a niche set of readers decide to pick up my book, I am just fine with not making wads of cash with my story.

As I said before, darkness for the sake of darkness is not the business I'm in. Certain scenes in the novel hit home for me and admittedly are kind of cathartic; but in no way am I writing this for the simple pleasure of feeding the depravity within anyone. Nor for my own selfish desires.

 

[Russ]

I am just fine with not making wads of cash with my story.

Well I am glad to hear that.

I was going to respond to the rest of the condescending self-contradictory clap-trap in the post but then I thought to myself, why bother? The alleged psychology professor would just think me naive and I could bear such a thing in my thin skinned state.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Keep it civil please. The discussion may rouse passionate feelings and reactions, but let's not stray into personal attacks.

 

[Tom]

Wow...just wow. Doing some serious button-mashing here for me. Pedophilia? Check. Rape used as punishment? Check. Calling prostitutes sexual deviants? Check. This is the kind of thing I can't help but get angry about.

You know why?

Stuff has happened to me. Just as you've hinted stuff has happened to you. But I don't write about it. I don't need to. I don't want to. I've shoved that sh*t into the furthest corner of my mind and carried on my way, albeit with wariness and some new fears. I don't feel the need to tell other people about the darkness of this world. They most likely already know.

The world has enough stories full of brutality and sexual violence already. Why do you feel the need to add yet one more title with the same contents? Yes, we get that we're surrounded by depravity and senseless violence. We often don't read fantasy to be enlightened about the "gray nature of life". We read it to escape the gray nature of life. Why not acknowledge that, though the world is dark, yes, it also has some light in it?

And seriously, I would refrain from reading your book based on your attitude alone, even if I didn't feel enormously enraged and discomfited by the material you've presented. That big-ass flounce you pulled up there isn't doing you any favors.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I hope you don't think I'm naive or sheltered or even sensitive. I'm not the moral white knight some folks are. I'm bipolar and have lived the majority of my life in the gray scale of things. I've also seen a lot of things in this world that are nearer to the black end of that scale. What I'm merely saying, is that this isn't appropriate for a fantasy story in my opinion. A psychological thriller? Sure. I mean, what would Sybil be without her mother's cruelty? What would Lolita be without a pedophile? I'm not arguing that exploring the darker side of the human condition is okay. I just read Falconer a year ago and loved it, and it has plenty of moral gray area. I'm just saying that evaluating the story you're trying to tell, is a part of being a writer. i'm not doing away with my incest relationship background even if readers are disgusted by it. I like it for the story, and that's the end of that.

When I spoke of this concept being irredeemable, I meant it. Wads of cash aside, this isn't a good concept, and the fundamental reasoning behind my belief in that, is that where some psychological books are about overcoming the conditions, or a victim dealing with the consequences, they find an audience because they're staged as studies about those issues. Fantasy isn't a genre that supports that in the capacity you probably need.

Now, I've gone over this many times, but when in human history is 12 an age for marriage? Many people quote this but don't know. In India today, we see brides as young as 5. But they are not wives in every sense of the word. They come from rural communities where marriage offers them a future and protection. They do not consummate their relationships until of a proper age. In other places in this world, young women are married to much older men, true, but look closer at those societies. Again, you'll find that a man may have several young wives, but he's meant to financially support the household. Those are cultures where women have little status or value, unfortunately. They aren't educated, and are limited to bearing children.

I'm not arguing the morality of either of these issues, but what is the story? If I were writing a tale about one of those young wives, wouldn't I be exploring how she missed home? How she felt like less of a woman because another wife had his true love, whereas she didn't? I certainly wouldn't be mentioning it lightly. It seems you have a feeling that your story has a greater meaning, and I'm fine accepting that, but you must also realize that many Western women know much less than I do about how this world works today and in its history. The mere concept of a twelve-year-old being married to a man three times her age will turn their stomaches. We're not comfortable thinking about our children being grown up so young. I think there's nothing wrong with the concept, but then setting plays a huge role. In England in the Renaissance, the median age for first-time brides (not widows), was 25. That's what it is today! Those few 12-year-olds who were married lived with family apart from their husbands.

I was well grown when I was fourteen and could understand love and sex, but many people can't. So, please don't think I'm some sort of idealist who just can't handle the truth. I mean, have you seen my profile pic? I'm anything but "normal" and I frequently explore dangerous and dark characters because I sympathize with them. But I can't sympathize with this because I don't think it's at all realistic in how you're describing it. A while ago I lived in New Mexico and bodies started turning up in the desert. They'd been deposited there for 30 years, all prostitutes and all in the same place. It's clear one person was behind it, so I understand how certain individuals can have it in for a certain kind of person (especially a kind of person who is easily missed and called a runaway or whatever), but the families of those women who were identified were crushed to know their daughters weren't simply missing, out there somewhere and alive. They'd been murdered and stuffed under the sand, where they lay in indignity for decades, some of them. BY portraying your character how you propose, you are almost advocating the act of rape by dehumanizing those victims. BUt they're still people, of no less value than any other.

I watched a youtube video I dare not post here because it's gut-wrenching and tragic, but it is called "David's Story" if you want to look it up. It's about a young boy who was autistic and the doctors said he couldn't feel pain because of his condition, so his parents treated him as less than human. They locked him in a room at home, with no door knob so his sister wouldn't let him out. They starved and beat him and I can only imagine the reasons behind it, but it was so sad. He eventually dies because of blunt force trauma when one of his periodic almost-drownings in a bathtub for bad behavior at school resulted in skull fracture. He was almost five years old and weighed 27 pounds. I am not a sensitive person, but I cannot get that image out of my mind some days, how very sad it is to treat any human with so little compassion. He was doing well in school, other than stealing food from other kids (because he was being starved at home), and I'm crying as I write this because it bothers me so deeply. If I wanted to write a story about a similar event, I'd have to understand that there are people who it will deeply bother, and that's if I do it well. If I do a shitty job on it, it'll be a thousand times worse.

Just keep that in mind.

Okay, I'm not saying these issues are individually problematic, my position is that this isn't a story. This is a psychological study of three people with conditions, and I can't imagine any of them being hugely entertaining as main characters in a fantasy adventure, let alone all three. This is just too much. And the worst part is that if you want to write a person with such a condition, I'd recommend devoting a significant amount of time to said condition (like I did when I made the young woman very cold to her son/ brother because of her resentment). Unfortunately, when juggling all these concepts, I just can't ever see this being a story worth reading.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

To be honest, I don't even feel comfortable participating in this topic because I want to be sensitive to any members who were victims of sexual abuse or are close to such victims, and I wonder if I'm making matters worse by keeping the thread alive. But I want to say that such abuse is a harsh reality to many people, and to create a moral dilemma in which a character "must" be a rapist or pedophile… as the author, you don't get to explain your way out of it. You ask if your premise is tacky and I don't know why you asked if the answer won't affect your decision one way or the other. I don't think MS members misunderstood because you have a beta reader saying pretty much what CM said, and the professor also warned you that "naive" people won't buy your book.

By the way, I sincerely hope the professor said "naive" to sugarcoat his advice–as opposed to someone in the psychology field actually thinking someone would have a problem with the portrayals of sexual abuse because they are naive. I work with teens and have had a lot of students who were girls who have been with men more than twice their age–some forcibly, some willingly, some paid. What would be naive is to think that a victim of rape or pedophilia wants to be enlightened to "the grey nature of life."

 

[Caged Maiden]

What LS said. This is just stupid to even entertain any longer. You have my personal answer. Now, I'm going to take my kids for a walk because I promised to do it a few hours earlier and i'm not in the mood to try to write my WiP. I hope at least the next time someone brings up this conversation, they read what we've said time and again in the past. There are about five threads on exactly this same subject floating around out there, and we need not rehash it again. Ever. If you have a legitimate question about how a victim copes after sexual abuse, we have that thread too and a lot of great info in it. Otherwise, let's not talk about "how to get a reader to sympathize with my rapist MC" Plain English: It ain't happening.

 

[Nimue]

I would bet anything that your beta-reader is uncomfortable and unhappy reading your writing, but feels socially constrained to continue. I have been in that situation before, and I no longer read that person's writing.

She's telling you that she does not like reading it and you're taking that as obscure validation.

Writing can be therapeutic, absolutely. The place for that is between you and a therapist. Don't push that in front of other people when they've clearly expressed their discomfort with reading it.

What you call naïvety is a respect for victims of trauma like this, and a reluctance to exploit real horror in fiction. Don't confuse a fascination for the taboo for maturity--if anything, it shows incredible immaturity and lack of empathy.

GRR Martin is an experienced, Hugo Award-winning author. You are proposing a novel of even worse, more graphic situations, as an aspiring author who leaves a spelling or grammatical error in almost every other sentence.

Dark situations can be written into fiction--when they are given the weight, respect, and distance that they deserve. Not when they are crammed into a fantasy world apparently designed around them. Please don't insult our intelligence by saying you've designed protagonists that rape and torture, dissect warm bodies and eat them, and rape their own daughters repeatedly to get them pregnant out of service to a moral or philosophical point. This is how you've introduced your story to us! I cannot imagine that anyone other than you really wants to read it. Please examine your reasons for writing this, and your reasons for putting it in front of other people, rape and gore-first.

 

[Tom]

Wait, necrophilia? I'll admit I skimmed much of this thread because I couldn't stomach the obsessive harping on sexual violence, but what? You are never going to get a trad publisher to pick this up! I hope you have no delusions about that.

Sorry for being blunt, but this makes me physically ill. Please do us all a favor and write about something else.

 

[Feo Takahari]

A couple years back, a poster here described how his magic system ran on life and death, so his MC made herself stronger by getting herself pregnant and aborting the fetuses. He said he wanted to get people to consider their morality and ask themselves whether they had a reason to call that "wrong." So I thought about it and decided I would consider it wrong and I wouldn't like or sympathize with the character. Just because you're setting up a test for the readers doesn't mean they'll "pass" it in the way you want them to, nor does it mean they won't test your characters--or you--themselves. You need to consider what, if anything, will make people want to read your book if they don't think the same way you do.

Speaking personally, I try to make sure there's someone to sympathize with. If I've got two murderous hypocrites and a well-intentioned coward, I've also got a lovable rogue who only steals to survive. If one protagonist values might above all else, and the second wants to protect people but has no regard for free will, the third is a naive kid who wants to be Batman. There needs to be room for at least a couple different types of people to feel empathy or kinship for some of your cast.

 

[skip.knox]

I'm with the majority here. I'm done with this. The OP asked for opinions. Opinions were given and are unanimous (pretty unusual around here!). Yet the OP persists in trying to explain. That no longer feels like explanation, it feels like trying to get us to validate his choices.

And I'll say it one more time: if you feel the need to write this sort of story, don't make it a fantasy. It doesn't fit. I don't know how to say it any plainer than that.

 

[Penpilot]

I have a jumble of thoughts in my head that I'm trying to put together as a coherent thought.

From what's described, the practical function of the society doesn't pass the smell test. Homosexuality as the norm? If most people are homosexuals, then how does the society grow? If polygamy is your answer, it still doesn't make sense evolution wise because the bulk of the genes passed on to the next generation will slant mostly towards hetro. In terms of prostitution, brothels, and temples, what's the difference? Why couldn't a married man can get serviced in any of those? And if the brothel and temple are free, why the heck would anyone pay a prostitute?

From your descriptions, the situations feel rigged to me. The character does bad things, but only to bad people. OR they do bad things, because someone put a figurative gun to their head. Or it was an accident, they didn't consciously know what they were doing.

So if you're exploring moral choices and accountability, the last two things are not choices at all. And in the case of the overwhelming and uncontrollable need to rape or torture, that could be classified as a mental disorder in which the person may not be considered morally responsible. To me it feels like you're putting the characters, and by extension the reader, into unfair circumstances, and then throwing in a justification to say something to the effect, see you would do the same thing under the same circumstance, which isn't true. It feels very much like a false dichotomy.

To me, these characters aren't making real choices. It's like telling someone they have to choose one or the other. Have sex with a dog or a corpse? It isn't an honest or fair question. IMHO if you want to explore the malleable nature of morality find better situations and ask the questions fairly.

Since cannibalism is part of what's being discussed, I asked this, what makes cannibalism so bad, aside from the ick-factor? We know it's practised by people all around the world, but does that make these people all monsters? Does it stop them from loving their family, from helping their neighbors, or from being human?

What's a real monster, someone who eats human flesh, someone who boffs a corpse from time to time, or someone who treats a 5 year old autistic kid like garbage?

Honestly, of all things mentioned in this thread, that story and situation was the most thought provoking, honest, and tragic.

 

[Nihilium 7th]

I've read an re-read through the thread, thinking about the critiques and advice; sifting through the emotions and I've come to a conclusion.

First let me say that to anyone who felt that I was attacking them in any way rest assured that I wasn't trying to. Second; thanks for the responses, negative critique is better than no critique. Third; after reading through my posts I can see why many of the things portrayed are seen as unnecessarily vile and that is partially my fault, should have done a better job of displaying the scenes.

I have taken some of the advice given here and plan to implement them into the story. Many of the post here really stuck, Penpilots recent one being an example. In a sense I guess I got to see a test run of how certain things in the novel would be recieved if not done carefully and correctly. Thanks to all who participated.

 

[Miskatonic]

Shock value often masks crappy writing or in the case of movies, directing ability or acting.

Implying things can be just as horrific as spending time giving all the gory details.

It reminds me of an old saying that I believe pertained to Hitchcock's films. It isn't the gunshot that matters, it's everything that happens leading up to the gunshot that matters. These days the gunshot is the only thing people focus on and more often than not it takes away from the story.

You can see the build up to the gunshot concept in a lot of short stories from the Horror genre. The climax can be the last paragraph or sentence of the story and is the payoff after all the buildup. If you can write well it's an affective, tried and true method.

 

[valiant12]

What's a real monster, someone who eats human flesh, someone who boffs a corpse from time to time, or someone who treats a 5 year old autistic kid like garbage?

Cannibalism and treating someone like shit for a condition they have is very similar, you treat another human being as an animal- human treat animals as inferior and humans eat animals.

 

[Devor]

I've just read through all of Nihilium's posts. I haven't read any of the replies except for snippets on the Activity Stream.

A few things.

- ASOIAF is nowhere near that kind of dark and is not an appropriate reference.

- I don't think pairing back the graphic scenes will make enough of a difference. Just hearing about the acts themselves, and the idea that they're supposed to be likable, is enough to feel revolting to many people.

- 15% of the novel being these graphic scenes is a HUGE amount.

- I think it's naive to think pedophilia would be still be considered a deviancy in a society such as this one when it was so common in history.

- You're trying to tackle a lot of this content with one story. If I was going to go as dark as necrophilia, just for instance, I can tell you: There would be ONE scene, and I would structure the character's arc and story around it. What you're doing is going heavily into overload.

- I don't know what your experiences are that lead you to write this, Nihilium. If you're writing this for catharsis, then maybe that's what you should do, get it out of your system, and start with a clearer head when you write for an audience.