• Welcome to the Fantasy Writing Forums. Register Now to join us!

It gets kind of Dark.

From what I've seen here I might have to tone some things down or find a way to rework some of the scenes. The overlying theme of the novel is the malleable nature of morality and the curse of free will and accountability. I try to use various characters to display those themes. One example is a prince who is honestly trying to help his country but is unknowingly cursed with an addiction to human flesh. He is unaware of his addiction because he suffers from severe delusions and hallucinations. In order to ensure his countries stability he does all the despicable things one expects a morally grey politician/noble to do when they believe that they are their countries last hope (order assassinations, back-stab, steal, etc). When he does find out about his cannibalism and the fact that his servants have been feeding his addiction discretely so that he wouldn't realize his sickness, he hates himself and nearly commits suicide only stopping because he thinks he is the only thing thwarting his countries destruction (which seems to actually be true.).
 
I personally think that the cannibalism could work, if it has enough reason to be there. In this case, is said character cursed as in he has some power over him that is causing him to be a cannibal? Because if he just goes around eating people for no reason other than for the sake of darker tones, then I would say that the story doesn't need it. Honestly though, Hannibal Lector is one of the most memorable characters in pop culture, and he ate a lot of people. So it is possible to make it work. Rape on the other hand is VERY hard to make work when the rapist is a central character who is doing it a lot. At least, that's my personal opinion.
 

skip.knox

toujours gai, archie
Moderator
Note however, ChasingSuns, that Lector is set in contemporary society. I don't think he would have been nearly so effective in a fantasy tale.
 

Russ

Istar
From what I've seen here I might have to tone some things down or find a way to rework some of the scenes. The overlying theme of the novel is the malleable nature of morality and the curse of free will and accountability. I try to use various characters to display those themes. One example is a prince who is honestly trying to help his country but is unknowingly cursed with an addiction to human flesh. He is unaware of his addiction because he suffers from severe delusions and hallucinations. In order to ensure his countries stability he does all the despicable things one expects a morally grey politician/noble to do when they believe that they are their countries last hope (order assassinations, back-stab, steal, etc). When he does find out about his cannibalism and the fact that his servants have been feeding his addiction discretely so that he wouldn't realize his sickness, he hates himself and nearly commits suicide only stopping because he thinks he is the only thing thwarting his countries destruction (which seems to actually be true.).

Those are very powerful themes to explore and I would encourage you to explore them.

But you need to think about the tools you are using to explore them.

Done very well, rape, cannibalism, pedophilia etc all can be used to explore important aspects of the human condition.

But I think each of those is a super strong ingredient for your story. You have to work really hard and write thoughtfully and carefully to not lose the story in shock and gore with just one of those ingredients. Throwing them all in is a receipe for disaster.

I would think you could build a good story around one of those elements, though it will not be easy, but two or more I think makes your task near impossible.
 
Currently it is believed to be a curse mainly because they want tit to be. The prince is currently wrestling with the fact that he is indeed a monster and is trying to change somehow. That conflict is another theme in the story; the faults people have and how they live with them. One of the things I want to do is have my readers peer into the life of extremely flawed characters that would be scorned in today's society maybe even wrestle with the same dilemmas.
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
Currently it is believed to be a curse mainly because they want tit to be. The prince is currently wrestling with the fact that he is indeed a monster and is trying to change somehow. That conflict is another theme in the story; the faults people have and how they live with them. One of the things I want to do is have my readers peer into the life of extremely flawed characters that would be scorned in today's society maybe even wrestle with the same dilemmas.
You're talking about more than mere faults & flaws though. You're speaking of depravity and asking the reader to sympathize.

I won't try to discourage you from tackling dark subject matter, but if you're going to do so, I suggest not trying to gain sympathy. You can write an interesting character and story centered around an unredeemable person.
 
Last edited:

X Equestris

Maester
One can certainly write about these things, but don't expect the reader to sympathize with characters who are doing them. The harder you try to force the reader to feel sympathy, the more they will rebel, if they've even stuck with you that long.
 
I'll go against the crowd and defend your prince. Dexter . . . The Woodsman . . . M . . . Even I Am Not a Serial Killer. The murderer or torturer can be sympathetic and likable, provided they struggle against their impulses. From the sounds of it, your rapist is a bigger problem. If he "just" tortures people in place of raping them, he's still giving in.
 
Last edited:

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
Now I've mentioned this before on this site, but I'll mention it again, I've written rape, abortion, and pedophilia into my stories, so know that before I say this...I don't like it. I don't like the ideas of rape and pedophilia being thrown casually into a story. I like the idea of the cannibalism however. I could imagine a situation where someone is cursed and must "feed" off something disgusting because it controls his curse (like maybe he's a werewolf and eating human flesh once in a while keeps him from changing and tearing villagers apart, or something), but sexual depravity is another matter entirely. It hist closer to home I think for a lot of people.

When I wrote pedophiles into my stories (twice), I did it for very specific reasons and the lead-up to the appearance of the first incident was half a book. Basically, halfway through a novel, a character realizes his friend IS IN FACT a murderer, and she killed her father, because the boy she's dragging around isn't really her brother, he's her son and the product of incest rape. Okay, I know that sounds pretty harsh, but yeah, that's what I chose to go with because it served a larger purpose than shock value to the reader. It helped establish why throughout her adult life she was unmarried and alone, and because of her solitude, she grew resentful of the boy she blamed for her loneliness. It's only after she falls in love with this guy and gets to confront her grandfather, that she becomes the boy's mother again, embracing him when her lover accepts him and wants him as a stepson. That was really the concept I wanted to broadcast, not the morality of incest, pedophilia, whatever it was. I played it like a desperate, lonely, angry man whose wife died young and he had to raise his daughter alone. None of her early life was ever on screen, but her entire future was shaped by her rejection of the way her father treated her and how she chose to poison him and free herself from abuse. She lived happily with her son, alone, for a few years, but then once her grandfather found her and took her into his home, her resentment started when her son became her brother and she was told no one would love her if she ever spoke of her "secret". Later in the story, a man who asked for her hand in marriage years ago basically lets the cat out of the bag and tells her he understands why she broke off their engagement (because he's a werewolf), and she understands that for years she's resented her son, when all along, it was her grandfather who sought to control her and "keep" her forever, to make up for the mistake he made years earlier when he sent her mother (his daughter) away from him to safety.

The other mention of pedophilia I wrote was aboard a ship, between an officer and a boy member of the crew, and my MC, the guy who is in love with the woman mentioned above, puts a stop to that as soon as he finds out. He has a strong fatherly instinct and though it jeopardizes his mission of secrecy, he rescues the boy from his abuser. That also had a greater impact on the story, because the mention wasn't about making anyone evil, it was more a segment about the harsh realities of life as a lone young person in the company of more powerful adults. The boy plays a critical role as the MC takes him under his wing and serves as his protector aboard the ship, and he turns into a helpful ally when they land. I don't see anything wrong with the concept there either, but I COULD always change it to the boy getting into trouble for stealing or something, but for now I'm leaving it, unless betas feel it's just the wrong concept to portray. Sometimes, what we think of as "no big deal" turns readers away like a stiff-arm, and all we can do is try to understand how our stories affect readers in the end. What works for one story might not for another.

I would say that a person who is addicted to human flesh might be hard to portray, but if it's for a reason (especially magical), it makes sense. If you try to portray someone addicted to sexually assaulting children, that's a little harder to gain sympathy on. Firstly, because it's unnatural. I know, cannibalism is unnatural as well, but it isn't a stretch to say humans eat meat and meat is animals, and humans aren't a first choice, but in a survival situation, you might just have to eat someone...hopefully someone who's dying already or who is recently deceased. Unfortunately, survival situations don't evoke arousal...in fact, they suppress those desires. So using a drive like that to explain an addiction is sort of counter-productive. I'd think it's more likely the character in question would perhaps be attracted to children (I'm not sure how it works because I don't feel this way so can't presume to understand the workings of a person who feels this way), but he puts himself in dangerous situations to allay those urges. Maybe he lives dangerously because he sees himself as depraved and wants to end his suffering? Maybe he drinks a lot. Maybe he regularly punishes himself with corporal punishment, self harm? There are a lot of ways to go with this, but I have to ask myself, is this all making him a better character?
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
I'll go against the crowd and defend your prince. Dexter . . .
I'm ignoring the other references because of my low level of familiarity. However, Dexter is an interesting case. But, keep in mind, he fulfilled the repressed wish of the viewer who might want to take revenge on the nastiest members of our society, but would never act on those impulses. If he was merely a serial killer with little rhyme or reason, living without a code, it would be much harder to find commonality. It's also important to note that Dexter behaves in ways that are not in line with typical sociopathic behavior. Still it's a good story, and yes, it can be done.

I referenced Lolita earlier. Humbert is an unlikable, unredeemable pedophile. But it's a great story & he's an interesting character because we witness his depravity & rationalization through his eyes. There's no need to condone the behavior or sympathize on any level.

In both cases, the depravity is in the spotlight & central to the character and story. It is not simply one of several dark topics & they're most certainly not included for shock value, or grit, alone.
 
I'm ignoring the other references because of my low level of familiarity. However, Dexter is an interesting case. But, keep in mind, he fulfilled the repressed wish of the viewer who might want to take revenge on the nastiest members of our society, but would never act on those impulses. If he was merely a serial killer with little rhyme or reason, living without a code, it would be much harder to find commonality. It's also important to note that Dexter behaves in ways that are not in line with typical sociopathic behavior. Still it's a good story, and yes, it can be done.

I referenced Lolita earlier. Humbert is an unlikable, unredeemable pedophile. But it's a great story & he's an interesting character because we witness his depravity & rationalization through his eyes. There's no need to condone the behavior or sympathize on any level.

In both cases, the depravity is in the spotlight & central to the character and story. It is not simply one of several dark topics & they're most certainly not included for shock value, or grit, alone.

The closest to Nihilium's story would probably be M. The main character is unable to stop himself from killing children, but he hates what he's doing and wishes he could free himself. The movie's message is that he's not evil, just a sick person who needs treatment. The whole thing's on Youtube.
 
Note however, ChasingSuns, that Lector is set in contemporary society. I don't think he would have been nearly so effective in a fantasy tale.

Very true, but I guess that what I am getting at is that it is possible to go kinda dark in fiction. But I do think that to force sympathy on a character is gonna push readers away. I can't say I ever sympathized with Lector, or Dexter, or Harvey Keitel's character from Bad Lieutenant. Or several other terrible individuals that were a main character in a story. I definitely am having hard time with the rapist who had to torture people in order to not rape them... that (to me) seems a bit excessive. I think that a lot of people would have a hard time reading that character's story.
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
yeah...I'm not even sure that's a thing. I've never heard of that. Now, I'm not that well-researched on the subject, but does that really exist? I mean, isn't it a progression sort of thing, like first you torture, rape and maim victims and then kill them, and then keep parts of them? I've never heard of someone substituting torture for rape if they're inclined to be a rapist and exert power in that specific way. Actually, this topic is sort of getting too much for me, not because I'm sensitive, but because I'm not sure the original concept makes sense. My question would still be why? Why would you choose to write a rapist rather than a kleptomaniac? Or a person who loves torture rather than an arrogant idiot? I'm just not understanding why those particular character profiles would appeal to readers any more than another sort of flawed character who can get himself into trouble by just being himself. I'd think if the character is a serial rapist who suppresses his sexual angst by torturing people and killing them instead, what's his story going to be about? I mean, if you're writing a story to make a close study of this type of behavior and how it ruins his existence and he eventually commits suicide or something dramatic, then I get it and have no problem, but fantasy stories most often include some sort of adventure, quest, or overcoming a problem to the betterment of a place/ city/ the world. Not that I think it needs to be light-hearted because mine certainly isn't. But my question is, how much of the story is devoted just to understanding the characters nature and the flaws he must keep in check? And what is the rest of the story about? and why are there three similarly fatally flawed character? A cannibal, a pedophile, and a rapist/ torturer? All in the same story? Wow. That's a lot of questionable stuff all in the same story. My fear for this work isn't that you can't write a good story about a depraved and immoral, or mentally ill person, it's that there's only so many ways to describe the act of suppressing an urge. How many scenes do you expect to devote to that single act? And what are the characters' goals? I can't see their problems as their goals and antagonists working out well.
 
I completely agree with what Caged Maiden said. I think that all of that in one story is a bit much. Like I said, I do think that the cannibal prince can be workable, and this is partially because it seems like there's more to it than just him eating people. Everything else seems like a bit much. Not to say it's impossible, I definitely believe that anything is possible in writing. But... I can't help but to think... it just seems like overkill.
 
There is only one character central to the plot who is involved with pedophilia and it is because he was forced to in order to save his own children. He eventually commits suicide because he can't live with the guilt. I never wrote him actually performing the acts though. The character who happens to be a rapist only rapes prostitutes (male and female.), other sexual deviants and petty criminals. Most of his "hunts" aren't shown unless it needs to be. Different societies in the novel mark adulthood differently and because of that some cultures in real life might have a problem with certain relationships while others will not.
I do plan to make some changes; especially scenes depicting graphic actions in detail.
 
There is only one character central to the plot who is involved with pedophilia and it is because he was forced to in order to save his own children. He eventually commits suicide because he can't live with the guilt. I never wrote him actually performing the acts though. The character who happens to be a rapist only rapes prostitutes (male and female.), other sexual deviants and petty criminals. Most of his "hunts" aren't shown unless it needs to be. Different societies in the novel mark adulthood differently and because of that some cultures in real life might have a problem with certain relationships while others will not.
I do plan to make some changes; especially scenes depicting graphic actions in detail.

Well with that in mind, it could be possible to pull off the pedophilia thing. Still though, it is gonna be hard to get people on board. I mean, really it's hard to say for sure without seeing the work, but until then all that I can say is that it can be VERY hard to keep your audience on board with this much intensity in terms of dark tones. A rapist is still gonna be potentially very hard to get readers to swallow. Not to say it can't be done, it can. But it's just gonna take a LOT of work to make it happen. At least, those are my thoughts :p
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
The character who happens to be a rapist only rapes prostitutes....
This is what bothers me. Perhaps it isn't as intended, but when you write things like "The rapist only rapes prostitutes..." it brings a lot into question.

A crime shouldn't be weighed against the victim. What does it matter if the rapist attacks prostitutes or suburban housewives? It's still a violent and atrocious crime.

If you're going to tackle seriously dark subject matter (which is perfectly within the realm of genre fiction), you need to do so with a modicum of understanding and respect. The subject matter needs the attention it deserves. Otherwise, it's window dressing and a poor choice.
 
I'm less struck by "prostitutes" itself than by "other sexual deviants," with the implication that being a prostitute equals sexual deviation. Maybe the world of your story has a different history and culture attached to prostitution, but I'm not sure I'd buy an otherwise crapsack setting full of misery and exploitation where all the prostitutes love their work and chose that career voluntarily. (And for that matter, "sexual deviants?" Unless you're talking about people who have sex with dogs or something, a post-gay-marriage reader isn't that likely to jump on the idea that they're Bad and deserve to be raped.)
 

Legendary Sidekick

The HAM'ster
Moderator
pedophilia … because he was forced to in order to save his own children.
I have three daughters and I love them dearly. I could not imagine myself doing… that… to another child to save my own. I wouldn't believe my captor would truly spare me and my daughters if I did… that.

If I read about a character who did something horrible to an innocent person while aroused because he wanted to save a different innocent person, the story ends there as far as I'm concerned.

So far, the only time I've seen anything similar was in the movie SE7EN. The lust killing. That it happened to a prostitute didn't change the fact that I thought it was one of the most ridiculous premises, dark for darkness' sake. I didn't walk out of the theater–I was with friends who, I assumed, wanted to finish the movie. But that scene was the immersion-breaker. For the remainder of the movie, I was wondering what went through the writer's head and how many sins so far? The answer to that question would help me calculate how much longer I had to sit there. The ending wasn't a shock at all because (1) it was predictably dark and (2) I didn't care.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top