This is very true. Almost as a rule, "Extended Universes" lead into excessive power escalations. I think it's kind of an unfair advantage to look outside the original series.
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Jedi vs Wizards and Witches from Harry Potter!!
- Thread starter Sheilawisz
- Start date
This is very true. Almost as a rule, "Extended Universes" lead into excessive power escalations. I think it's kind of an unfair advantage to look outside the original series.
Mindfire
Istar
I disagree. The "Original Series" portrays the Jedi when they were at their lowest point and nearly powerless. Darth Vader, Obi-Wan, and even Yoda exhibited powers that were far inferior to what they used to be able to manage. Vader being turned into a cyborg weakened his force skills, and Obi-Wan and Yoda were a couple decades out of practice. Luke was only a beginner and had yet to reach his true potential. The only one who seems to have maintained their power is the Emperor, and all we see him do is shoot lightning. "Original Series only" isn't an equalizer, it's a handicap!
I was referring to the books, not the movies. In terms of the movies, that would be all six of them.
((edit)) After a quick google search, the publishing history behind the books seems more confusing than I realized. Still, all six of the movies are not considered part of the "extended universe."
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- Thread starter
- #24
@Devor: Thank you!! I would like to add that the Wizards do not need to see their target to hit it with any Magic: If that were true, then Harry could have been invulnerable to anything that the Death Eaters or Voldemort himself threw at him... by simply hiding under his invisibility cloak- That was not the case in the books, the cloak (or Disillusionment Charms) can help to hide you from your enemies, but you are still vulnerable to all sort of Magical attacks.
We are losing the Poll because there are more Star Wars fans than Harry Potter fans here at Mythic Scribes, and also, many people hold kind of a grudge against the Harry Potter series without even reading the books first =(
Well, here is a limited list of what the Wizards and Witches have to offer in the battle against the Jedi:
1- That "invisible, irresistible force" to counter the Jedi's Force attacks.
2- Transfiguration: The Jedi have never encountered something like that.
3- Blasting Curses: Instant effect, not something that you can stop with a Lightsaber: These curses cause massive explosions, capable of destroying an entire street or castle walls, killing several people one hit.
4- Legilimency: Could help to break into the Jedi's minds and know what they are planning to do next.
5- Occlumency: It would be useful to counter the Jedi's mental attacks.
6- Disillusionment charms: Tactical advantage.
7- Apparition: Wizards can teleport to get out of the way of Lightsaber strikes or Force Lightning, appearing behind the Jedi ready to deliver a Transfiguration attack.
I have no doubt that the Jedi would be dangerous enemies for the Wizards, but the Wizards are not harmless either... many people reading other Fantasy series think that they are weak for battle, but they have never read the Harry Potter books =)
We are losing the Poll because there are more Star Wars fans than Harry Potter fans here at Mythic Scribes, and also, many people hold kind of a grudge against the Harry Potter series without even reading the books first =(
Well, here is a limited list of what the Wizards and Witches have to offer in the battle against the Jedi:
1- That "invisible, irresistible force" to counter the Jedi's Force attacks.
2- Transfiguration: The Jedi have never encountered something like that.
3- Blasting Curses: Instant effect, not something that you can stop with a Lightsaber: These curses cause massive explosions, capable of destroying an entire street or castle walls, killing several people one hit.
4- Legilimency: Could help to break into the Jedi's minds and know what they are planning to do next.
5- Occlumency: It would be useful to counter the Jedi's mental attacks.
6- Disillusionment charms: Tactical advantage.
7- Apparition: Wizards can teleport to get out of the way of Lightsaber strikes or Force Lightning, appearing behind the Jedi ready to deliver a Transfiguration attack.
I have no doubt that the Jedi would be dangerous enemies for the Wizards, but the Wizards are not harmless either... many people reading other Fantasy series think that they are weak for battle, but they have never read the Harry Potter books =)
To the extent you have work that is considered "canon," I think it is fair to look at it. In Star Wars, the includes many of the books dealing with the various time periods in the history of that universe.
I think the Jedi/Force Users would win rather convincingly, and I don't think you could expect any of the tricks by the wizards and witches that rely on messing with the mind (charms, mind control, seeing into the mind etc.) to work well if at all on the Force Users.
Sheila - I'm a fan of Harry Potter. But I think the Jedi/Force Users would kick the crap out of the wizards and witches of the Harry Potter series. I think that's why you're losing the poll
I think the Jedi/Force Users would win rather convincingly, and I don't think you could expect any of the tricks by the wizards and witches that rely on messing with the mind (charms, mind control, seeing into the mind etc.) to work well if at all on the Force Users.
Sheila - I'm a fan of Harry Potter. But I think the Jedi/Force Users would kick the crap out of the wizards and witches of the Harry Potter series. I think that's why you're losing the poll
- Thread starter
- #26
@Steerpike: Maybe the mental powers would be countered by the same powers from the other side, which means that the Jedi would be unable to mind-control the Wizards, slow them down or creating illusions- In the same way, the Jedi might resist well the Imperius and the Cruciatus attacks, or perhaps these would have just little effect on them.
Jedi supporters have not answered yet how the Jedi would protect themselves against Transfiguration, Blasting Curses or the fact that the Wizards can simply point their wand at you and then you go instantly ablaze =)
Wizards also have a secret weapon that I will not bring into discussion yet... and no, it's not Fiendfyre!!
Jedi supporters have not answered yet how the Jedi would protect themselves against Transfiguration, Blasting Curses or the fact that the Wizards can simply point their wand at you and then you go instantly ablaze =)
Wizards also have a secret weapon that I will not bring into discussion yet... and no, it's not Fiendfyre!!
Force users can shield themselves, so I wouldn't assume all of that will work on them necessarily. I think they're also going to be a lot better at getting the drop on the wizards, and a lot of that won't do much good if the wizard is already dead
- Thread starter
- #28
Wizards can also shield themselves- anyway, can a Jedi's defenses resist a powerful blasting curse capable of shattering an entire street or blow a huge hole in a castle's walls? Can their shields work against Magical attacks like a Transfiguration and other reality-warping effects, the kind of stuff that they have never encountered?
How would the Jedi be better at getting the drop on the Wizards, if the Wizards can teleport and appear out of nowhere right behind you??
Also, remember that the thread says a good number of Jedi fighting a large number of Wizards and Witches.
There are perhaps millions of them in their world (over a hundred thousand attended the World Cup final, and those were just the lucky few who could get tickets) the Wizards would have the advantage of sheer numerical superiority, and this would help them to outnumber and defeat magical characters from other Fantasy universes like the Jedi =)
Wait for my secret weapon revelation, hee heee... and check my new avatar, that's my cat, Jerry!!
How would the Jedi be better at getting the drop on the Wizards, if the Wizards can teleport and appear out of nowhere right behind you??
Also, remember that the thread says a good number of Jedi fighting a large number of Wizards and Witches.
There are perhaps millions of them in their world (over a hundred thousand attended the World Cup final, and those were just the lucky few who could get tickets) the Wizards would have the advantage of sheer numerical superiority, and this would help them to outnumber and defeat magical characters from other Fantasy universes like the Jedi =)
Wait for my secret weapon revelation, hee heee... and check my new avatar, that's my cat, Jerry!!
(OOPS)
/10char
/10char
The problem, of course, is that you're giving the wizards every possible advantage that might be present in the series, but you've already taken away the most power force powers and said it is not fair to use them.
The number of force users will vary depending on which time period in Star Wars lore you are talking about. There could potentially be a lot of them or a few of them. If we're talking time periods, the time of the force users comes long, long before the time of Potter and the wizards, so you have to figure they'd have grown even more in strength over the intervening years and could snuff out the wizards at the very first sign of their appearance
Jerry is cute
(PS Don't forget to add some names to the death match!)
The number of force users will vary depending on which time period in Star Wars lore you are talking about. There could potentially be a lot of them or a few of them. If we're talking time periods, the time of the force users comes long, long before the time of Potter and the wizards, so you have to figure they'd have grown even more in strength over the intervening years and could snuff out the wizards at the very first sign of their appearance
Jerry is cute
(PS Don't forget to add some names to the death match!)
I don't want to get too involved, but it is an unfair advantage advantage that the Jedi have more written about them. Canon or not, extended universes lead to power escalations, and I think only the core story should be considered - the six movies, or whatever the equivalent is in books. We don't have the equivalent of an extended universe for Harry Potter.
I still think Jedi win in a straight fight.
But, of course Jedi win in a straight fight. They've got the advantage of being sci-fi. They fight wars on an intergalactic scale, conflicts that outstrip a wizard - or any fantasy character - doing the equivalent damage to a countryside. In terms of their role in the books, and the scope of their power in proportion to their conflicts, they're about equal. But that's not at all the question.
- Thread starter
- #32
I have taken away the most powerful Wizards like Dumbledore, Grindelwald and Voldemort: The Wizards and Witches involved in this fanfictional battle are Auror-level or Death Eater-level, but not the most devastating that you can find in the series- In the same way, the Jedi fighting them are good and well-trained, but not like Mace Windu or the Sith Emperor that you mentioned that can destroy entire planets with the Force.
So far, I have not said that any of the Wizards in the battle would be capable of controlling Fiendfyre... which would be a great weapon in the battle, even against a very large number of Jedi =)
I have a question: How many Jedi there were in the times before the Empire??
So far, I have not said that any of the Wizards in the battle would be capable of controlling Fiendfyre... which would be a great weapon in the battle, even against a very large number of Jedi =)
I have a question: How many Jedi there were in the times before the Empire??
Before the purge there were "several hundred thousand" Jedi, but no exact figure is given. Also, presumably that figure doesn't include force users on the dark side.
True. However the Potter books are supposed to represent among the most power of their kind ever. The six movies that form the core of Star Wars do not, and in fact for the last three the Jedi are at a low point and don't represent the pinnacle of what can be done.
Also, you should add some names to the death match
- Thread starter
- #35
Whaaat?! There were so many of them!! We could even have a scenario with several hundred thousand of each side involved in a massive epic battle, it would be fun, but the idea of my thread is a much smaller battle: Maybe three hundred Jedi fighting a thousand Wizards and Witches in a forest at night.
To be honest, I think that if the Jedi outnumbered the Wizards then we would see a Jedi victory, with the Wizards either dying or being forced to escape by Apparition... but if the Wizards get the numerical superiority, even three to one, the Jedi should better find a way to escape or else just pray for a quick death =)
The numbers in each side would decide the battle... and in my opinion, the Wizards are more likely to get this advantage!!
What do you mean by adding names?
To be honest, I think that if the Jedi outnumbered the Wizards then we would see a Jedi victory, with the Wizards either dying or being forced to escape by Apparition... but if the Wizards get the numerical superiority, even three to one, the Jedi should better find a way to escape or else just pray for a quick death =)
The numbers in each side would decide the battle... and in my opinion, the Wizards are more likely to get this advantage!!
What do you mean by adding names?
Mindfire
Istar
I personally think the Jedi will take this one.
The Wizards might have a sheer numbers advantage- maybe, depending on the time period we're talking about. And they also have a certain surprise advantage in that many of their attacks will be unfamiliar and strange to the Jedi, but Jedi adapt quickly.
By way of constrast, the Jedi may be at a numbers disadvantage, but they have superior training. Namely, they're actual soldiers. Very few wizards, if I understand correctly, could be considered soldiers. The Death Eaters are essentially a terrorist group with magic, not trained warriors. And Dumbledore's "Army" seems to be something of a misnomer to me. The grand majority of wizards are civilians. Being extremely powerful does not instantly make you a warrior, just like even if I picked up a machine gun, I still couldn't hold a candle to a Navy SEAL. The Jedi are skilled in several forms of warfare and strategy: field combat, urban combat, guerrilla warfare, and starship combat as well as one-on-one duels. The Jedi almost universally served as commanders and generals during the clone wars, and that was their twilight era, when they were weakening. And if the wizards have a surprise advantage because of their unconventional arsenal, the Jedi have a surprise advantage in spades. The wizards can't even figure out how electricity works. How on earth will they even comprehend lightsabers, blasters, and force techniques, let alone combat them. Occlumency will shield them from mind attacks, yes. That makes sense, but mental attacks are a small fraction of the Jedi's actual arsenal. And while apparition might catch a Jedi off guard once, they will adapt. Their force precognition will allow them to sense when and where a wizard might teleport, and they will adjust accordingly. Darth Vader was able to block blaster bolts with his hand. More powerful Jedi should be able to fend off magic bolts.
In summary, I see the Wizards opening strong because the Jedi haven't seen anything like them before (but considering the existence of the witches of Dathomir and other "occult" or "wizard" force users, that might even be debatable), but the Jedi will adjust and take the upper hand fairly quickly after the battle starts.
Plus, the Jedi have starfighters. That's kind of a gamebreaker.
The Wizards might have a sheer numbers advantage- maybe, depending on the time period we're talking about. And they also have a certain surprise advantage in that many of their attacks will be unfamiliar and strange to the Jedi, but Jedi adapt quickly.
By way of constrast, the Jedi may be at a numbers disadvantage, but they have superior training. Namely, they're actual soldiers. Very few wizards, if I understand correctly, could be considered soldiers. The Death Eaters are essentially a terrorist group with magic, not trained warriors. And Dumbledore's "Army" seems to be something of a misnomer to me. The grand majority of wizards are civilians. Being extremely powerful does not instantly make you a warrior, just like even if I picked up a machine gun, I still couldn't hold a candle to a Navy SEAL. The Jedi are skilled in several forms of warfare and strategy: field combat, urban combat, guerrilla warfare, and starship combat as well as one-on-one duels. The Jedi almost universally served as commanders and generals during the clone wars, and that was their twilight era, when they were weakening. And if the wizards have a surprise advantage because of their unconventional arsenal, the Jedi have a surprise advantage in spades. The wizards can't even figure out how electricity works. How on earth will they even comprehend lightsabers, blasters, and force techniques, let alone combat them. Occlumency will shield them from mind attacks, yes. That makes sense, but mental attacks are a small fraction of the Jedi's actual arsenal. And while apparition might catch a Jedi off guard once, they will adapt. Their force precognition will allow them to sense when and where a wizard might teleport, and they will adjust accordingly. Darth Vader was able to block blaster bolts with his hand. More powerful Jedi should be able to fend off magic bolts.
In summary, I see the Wizards opening strong because the Jedi haven't seen anything like them before (but considering the existence of the witches of Dathomir and other "occult" or "wizard" force users, that might even be debatable), but the Jedi will adjust and take the upper hand fairly quickly after the battle starts.
Plus, the Jedi have starfighters. That's kind of a gamebreaker.
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- Thread starter
- #37
The Aurors are essentially Wizard soldiers dedicated to fight off and capture Dark Wizards, and Ministries also have something called "Shock Wizards" that we know very little about. The idea is to have this level of Wizards and Witches to fight the Jedi in one battle, not to decide what would happen in a large-scale war involving other things like Starfighters or the Dementors =)
I accept that the Jedi are very cool and powerful (I do like Star Wars!) but I am way too deeply in love with Magic as a mysterious, truly supernatural power like it is in the Harry Potter series... and I will always support the Wizards in a fanfictional encounter against characters from other Fantasy universes.
Dumbledore's Army was just an organization of students, but they fought bravely in the final battle anyway =)
I accept that the Jedi are very cool and powerful (I do like Star Wars!) but I am way too deeply in love with Magic as a mysterious, truly supernatural power like it is in the Harry Potter series... and I will always support the Wizards in a fanfictional encounter against characters from other Fantasy universes.
Dumbledore's Army was just an organization of students, but they fought bravely in the final battle anyway =)
Mindfire
Istar
Ok, well that changes things. First, it denies the Wizards the numbers advantage, because obviously not ALL THE WIZARDS! are going to be Aurors or Shock Wizards. And it does put the two groups on a more equal footing. I know very little about the Potter-verse, so it's hard to say, but I'm still thinking the Jedi's adaptability and wide variety of combat experience will carry the day eventually, although the wizards will likely open strong and hold the upper hand at first.
(aside: Hey Mindfire, who else should I add to the Death Match? I need a handful more).
Mindfire
Istar
Who'd you put in so far?
