Male love interest or female companion?

[Svrtnsse]

I believe that both Jim Butcher (Dresden Files) and Ben Aaronovich (Rivers of London) do pretty well with the depiction of the relationship issues of their respective main characters. That said, both series are contemporary/urban fantasy and the actual sex scenes are more just references to the fact that sex happened than detailed descriptions of the action.
As far as sex goes they're probably not all that interesting, but as far as male writers doing believable relationships from a male main character perspective, they're pretty good.

I can't think of any male writer describing a believable relationship from a female main character perspective at the moment. I'm sure there are some out there, I just can't think of any at the moment.

 

[Chilari]

I think we're reading vastly different fantasy stories...

Seriously, besides some of the kind of behavior in WoT, I have a hard time thinking of a series where this was handled in the way that you described.

A lot of Gemmell's books, particualrly the earlier books, have a token woman in her twenties who inevitably has sex with one or other of the male heroes. One exception is Hero in the Shadows, where the female lead is raped in the first chapter and never again has sex, but Waylander does hire a prostitute at one point, a scene that adds almost nothing to the story. The only other women in the story are a genetically engineered bear-woman priestess and a minor older lady married to a bad guy - both "off-limits". Only "off-limits" women don't have sex - as described in a previous post, those too young, too old, or related to the only available male characters. Or, you know, genetically engineered were-women.

I have read other novels with the same sort of attitude, but can't think of them off the top of my head. Maybe it's more a generational thing, not so common now as it was 30 years ago, but I've seen it enough to be thoroughly bored of it.

 

[Jabrosky]

This whole discussion has thrown me into another state of confusion over what I want in my story. On the one hand, I'd love my female protagonist to appeal to women, but on the other hand I am still a straight guy with raging hormones. I thought that sexy female warriors would appeal to both genders since they embody feminist ideals and male desires at the same time, but now I see a very tricky balance between appealing to women and appealing to men.

 

[Ireth]

This whole discussion has thrown me into another state of confusion over what I want in my story. On the one hand, I'd love my female protagonist to appeal to women, but on the other hand I am still a straight guy with raging hormones. I thought that sexy female warriors would appeal to both genders since they embody feminist ideals and male desires at the same time, but now I see a very tricky balance between appealing to women and appealing to men.

Speaking as an asexual woman, sexy female characters who are put in books for no other purpose than to bang the hero do not appeal to me at all. The male lead in my latest WIP does have a female love interest, and it's implied that they do have sex. But that aspect of their life is downplayed (the most they've done in the text so far is kiss), and the woman in question also has a life outside of being the hero's girlfriend; she's first and foremost the chief healer in her Queen's castle, and she does accomplish plot-relevant things while the MC is off doing other things. She even -- gasp -- goes for some time without thinking about him. Likewise, the male MC has at least two platonic female friends, who also have their own roles in the plot and do not end up as secondary love/lust interests.

 

[Jabrosky]

Speaking as an asexual woman, sexy female characters who are put in books for no other purpose than to bang the hero do not appeal to me at all. The male lead in my latest WIP does have a female love interest, and it's implied that they do have sex. But that aspect of their life is downplayed (the most they've done in the text so far is kiss), and the woman in question also has a life outside of being the hero's girlfriend; she's first and foremost the chief healer in her Queen's castle, and she does accomplish plot-relevant things while the MC is off doing other things. She even -- gasp -- goes for some time without thinking about him. Likewise, the male MC has at least two platonic female friends, who also have their own roles in the plot and do not end up as secondary love/lust interests.

Thing is, the main female character in my story is the protagonist rather than in a supporting role. I will admit one reason I write and draw female characters so much is because I like their sex appeal, but by virtue of being the protagonist, my heroine will do more than have sex of course.

 

[Ireth]

Thing is, the main female character in my story is the protagonist rather than in a supporting role. I will admit one reason I write and draw female characters so much is because I like their sex appeal, but by virtue of being the protagonist, my heroine will do more than have sex of course.

Noted. But from the way you've described your story intentions so far, it seems like the exact same issue, only with the genders reversed. Does that male character contribute to the story aside from the sex scene? Does his personality match well enough with the heroine's for them to even consider having sex in the first place, or are they driven to it by hormones alone? What will you do if, by nature of characters developing on their own as they're written, you find that they just aren't sexually compatible? I would hope you don't shoehorn in a sex scene that doesn't fit the story just because it's what you want to write. That's where things start getting gratuitous.

 

[Jabrosky]

Noted. But from the way you've described your story intentions so far, it seems like the exact same issue, only with the genders reversed. Does that male character contribute to the story aside from the sex scene? Does his personality match well enough with the heroine's for them to even consider having sex in the first place, or are they driven to it by hormones alone? What will you do if, by nature of characters developing on their own as they're written, you find that they just aren't sexually compatible? I would hope you don't shoehorn in a sex scene that doesn't fit the story just because it's what you want to write. That's where things start getting gratuitous.

To be honest, he isn't terribly important to the story otherwise (except maybe to fatten up the word count). You may be right, I could stand to cut him out.

 

[Steerpike]

To some extent, doesn't "gratuitous" always encompass a given readers comfort level or preference? Any time you have a sex scene, you're writing a different story than if you had written the same novel without that sex scene. Invariably, you're going to get some characterization out of it, if nothing else. So it seems to me you just have to trust your instincts and write what you want (or what you'd want to read if you were the reader) and not fixate too much on whether a level of sexuality or violence or anything else will put someone off.

 

[saellys]

Description of the sex act itself serves little purpose other than titillation, or perhaps humor if the author has such inclinations. So you could say that all sex scenes are always gratuitous... from a certain point of view.

I'd say a difference would be that an action scene can further the plot in and of itself, whereas a sex scene only furthers the plot by what happens because of it.

I strongly disagree. There are writers who write abysmally bad sex scenes, and writers who write multiple sex scenes which all look the same (which I think is what you're envisioning here), and plenty of writers who write sex scenes which tell us utterly nothing about the characters involved, and writers who do all three of those things at once. It doesn't have to be that way.

A sex scene can convey all kinds of things about a character that can't otherwise be shown in anything but clumsy exposition. The juxtaposition between the act itself, and what a character is thinking during that time, can be quite evocative. Previous sexual experiences come into it, and it can be an interesting angle to write a brash and handsome young knight who's only ever been with one person in the past, or a righteous paladin with loads of conquests. Does the encounter make the character question their sexuality? Is there an imbalance of social status in the relationship that compels one partner to be submissive, or even make it a situation of dubious consent, and does the other notice or care? Do they speak to each other, and if so, what do they say? Are they emotionally invested, or driven wholly by the physical, or just going through the motions because it's the eve of battle and the body's got needs?

And that's just the internal, mental/emotional side of things. The level of detail an author puts into description of the physical act can be just as telling. Who's on top, if anyone, who penetrates who, if anyone, and I'll stop there lest this post get deleted for explicitness.

Point is, maybe a sex scene won't be a pivotal moment in a plot, but it sure can say a ton about the people involved. It can also be beautifully and uniquely written, and enjoyable to read on multiple levels. Provided they aren't identical every instance and don't just become the Heterosexual Male Gaze objectifying female characters, I am fully in favor of as many sex scenes as possible in fantasy, and literature in general.

For whatever it's worth, Jabrosky, I cast my vote for a female companion. There aren't enough platonic lady friends roaming through fantasy worlds together.

 

[Ireth]

That's true, Steerpike. But I think there's a line between "author appeal" and "gratuitous X, Y or Z." To take examples from my own stories, I write a lot about Fae and vampires, which is my own "author appeal". But if I were to put either of those into a story about sapient wolves living on another planet, to me that would cross the line into gratuitousness. IMO, from the authorial perspective, it's partly a matter of whether something enhances the story that's already there or just clings to it without adding anything meaningful -- like the difference between fur on a cat and fur on a fish. Obviously it'll be a bit different from the reader's side of things.

 

[NellaFantasia]

This whole discussion has thrown me into another state of confusion over what I want in my story. On the one hand, I'd love my female protagonist to appeal to women, but on the other hand I am still a straight guy with raging hormones. I thought that sexy female warriors would appeal to both genders since they embody feminist ideals and male desires at the same time, but now I see a very tricky balance between appealing to women and appealing to men.

I'll go ahead and give my opinion on this. Take it for what it's worth.

The sexy female warrior has been shoved into my face all over the entertainment world in comics, video games, literature, and movies for years, and no, it doesn’t appeal to me (a woman). If you’re looking to appeal to us, then gives us real women, not eye candy meant for men. Make us strong, sure, but give us strong personality traits instead of perfectly toned bodies. Allow us to have sex, but realize there’s a difference between viewing women as people with sexual desires and viewing women as objects of lust.

Give us real women. Women who scrape and crawl through the mud to get where they need to go. Women who don’t give up. Women who make mistakes, fall and try again. Women who fight for their families, for their people, for their countries. Women who have as much power in their words as they do in their swords. Women who sacrifice for what they believe in. Women who are over forty because their lives aren’t only worthwhile when they’re younger.

I’m tired of women in tight, revealing clothing kicking a man’s ass with a flirtatious smirk. I want to see a woman in full armor, whatever that may be, covered in sweat and grime and blood with scratches and wounds, smelling and hair a mess because it shows what she’d had to overcome to achieve victory. Because it shows the blood she’s lost, the blood she’s taken, and how many times she fell to the ground and got back up.

I don’t give a damn about a sex scene. I don’t give a damn about a sexy character. That doesn’t make me feel empowered. A woman who struggles and overcomes whatever it is her obstacles may be (sexy or not), THAT’S what a strong, empowered woman is.

 

[Steerpike]

@Ireth:

Well, the... :redcarded: *successful check to resist urge to comment on analogy*

I think that's all true, Ireth. I suppose what I'm saying is that the line is entirely dependent on individual perception. There is really no objective analysis of what is gratuitous, but just the reader's feelings about something that make it seem gratuitous or not. Does that make sense?

 

[Ireth]

I think that's all true, Ireth. I suppose what I'm saying is that the line is entirely dependent on individual perception. There is really no objective analysis of what is gratuitous, but just the reader's feelings about something that make it seem gratuitous or not. Does that make sense?

Indeed it does.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I'll go ahead and give my opinion on this. Take it for what it's worth. The sexy female warrior has been shoved into my face all over the entertainment world in comics, video games, literature, and movies for years, and no, it doesn't appeal to me (a woman). If you're looking to appeal to us, then gives us real women, not eye candy meant for men. Make us strong, sure, but give us strong personality traits instead of perfectly toned bodies. Allow us to have sex, but realize there's a difference between viewing women as people with sexual desires and viewing women as objects of lust. Give us real women. Women who scrape and crawl through the mud to get where they need to go. Women who don't give up. Women who make mistakes, fall and try again. Women who fight for their families, for their people, for their countries. Women who have as much power in their words as they do in their swords. Women who sacrifice for what they believe in. Women who are over forty because their lives aren't only worthwhile when they're younger. I'm tired of women in tight, revealing clothing kicking a man's ass with a flirtatious smirk. I want to see a woman in full armor, whatever that may be, covered in sweat and grime and blood with scratches and wounds, smelling and hair a mess because it shows what she'd had to overcome to achieve victory. Because it shows the blood she's lost, the blood she's taken, and how many times she fell to the ground and got back up. I don't give a damn about a sex scene. I don't give a damn about a sexy character. That doesn't make me feel empowered. A woman who struggles and overcomes whatever it is her obstacles may be (sexy or not), THAT'S what a strong, empowered woman is.

I notice you have Monzcarro Murcatto as your avatar...a fitting choice & a great female character.

If anyone wants a good example of a female character who is real, whose attitudes towards sex, & use of femininity or violence show a willingness to do whatever is necessary....look no farther than Abercrombie's "Best Served Cold" protagonist.

 

[Steerpike]

I notice you have Monzcarro Murcatto as your avatar...a fitting choice & a great female character.

And Abercrombie uses the sex scenes in that book to good effect, in my opinion.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

And Abercrombie uses the sex scenes in that book to good effect, in my opinion.

Precisely, and she shatters the damsel in distress model. The sex she's involved in is very telling of her character and the lengths she will go to.

 

[NellaFantasia]

I notice you have Monzcarro Murcatto as your avatar...a fitting choice & a great female character.

If anyone wants a good example of a female character who is real, whose attitudes towards sex, use of femininity or violence, & a willingness to do whatever is necessary....look no farther than Abercrombie's "Best Served Cold" protagonist.

Absolutely

 

[Jabrosky]

I’m tired of women in tight, revealing clothing kicking a man’s ass with a flirtatious smirk. I want to see a woman in full armor, whatever that may be, covered in sweat and grime and blood with scratches and wounds, smelling and hair a mess because it shows what she’d had to overcome to achieve victory. Because it shows the blood she’s lost, the blood she’s taken, and how many times she fell to the ground and got back up.

Has it ever occurred to you that a woman can be sexy eye candy in one part of the story and "covered in sweat and blood" in another? Why do your kind always treat these things as mutually exclusive?

Everyone who said I should go with my gut instinct and write whatever I want was right. I think excessive conscientiousness about feminism and pleasing certain demographics is doing me more harm than good.

 

[Steerpike]

Let's stay away from 'your kind' types of remarks, regardless of viewpoint, however. Arguing the subject matter and not the persons involved tends to result in better discourse

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Has it ever occurred to you that a woman can be sexy eye candy in one part of the story and "covered in sweat and blood" in another? Why do your kind always treat these things as mutually exclusive? Everyone who said I should go with my gut instinct and write whatever I want was right. I think excessive conscientiousness about feminism and pleasing certain demographics is doing me more harm than good.

When you ask for opinions, that's what you'll get. This is someone's opinion on what they'd like to see. Isn't that basically what your poll asks? Wasn't that the point these posts have made, by yourself and others?

In the end, you should write what you'd like to read. I'd never argue that point. However, if you're going to ask people what they'd want to read, people's choices are bound to differ from yours. Accept their thinking, or reject it and move on.

The lesson here should be: Write what you want, not what another likes.