Sex!

[pmmg]

lol. Ewwwwwwww, gross. Cover your eyes.

But wait, I looked...

I don't know, I believe in giving the story what it needs. If sex needs to be in there, than by all means...put it in. If not, then I would leave it out. Like everything else, one has to ask what this is really adding to the story. If its adding something important then in it has to go. I think it mostly belongs if it adds to understanding the characters, being witness to the ways in which they grow or relate, or culminates something that has been building for a long time, or I suppose adds to the tone of the story.

In addressing the original post, sounds like something with a soft R rating would most likely suit. Though, you really should not write with the fear that others may read it. You gotta write it the way it needs to be. Dance like no one is watching, and all that.

 

[Heliotrope]

No I'm not missing the point, I'm just not articulating myself well. Sex is a big part of romance, love, wether it is a first kiss, or hand holding, or full on sex. Being physically intimate is a big part of love (even if it is only a first kiss). It would be challenging to write a romance plot line without some physical intimacy, and readers expect it. That is all I'm getting at.

Of course in Christian romance or sweet romance it is not there, which is why I said "first kiss" counts. Physical intimacy ). Often times the whole set up of the novel is to get to the first kiss by the end. For me that counts as "sex" for the general purpose of the argument.

 

[pmmg]

People are saying "Only if it contributes to the story"

But I'm not understanding what showing the sex is supposed to contribute over a cut away or leaving it up to reader imagination.

Well, I think a lot of the sex in Game of Thrones accomplishes this. Through the sex we see how the Dothraki treat and think of women, both those they are devoted to and those they have conquered. We also saw a bit of how Viserys treated his sister, as if she was his property, and his right. If they had simply faded to black, we would have lost a good bit of showing how these relationships worked. The scene where Daenerys finally decided to get on top is a right of passage scene for her. Understanding and developments of these characters just would not have been as conveyed if there were all done off camera. I suppose I could write around them if I wanted, but why? GOT is a adult tale, and its readers are expecting things a bit unfiltered.

 

[Svrtnsse]

No I'm not missing the point, I'm just not articulating myself well. Sex is a big part of romance, love, wether it is a first kiss, or hand holding, or full on sex. Being physically intimate is a big part of love (even if it is only a first kiss). It would be challenging to write a romance plot line without some physical intimacy, and readers expect it. That is all I'm getting at.

Of course in Christian romance or sweet romance it is not there, which is why I said "first kiss" counts. Physical intimacy ). Often times the whole set up of the novel is to get to the first kiss by the end. For me that counts as "sex" for the general purpose of the argument.

Just to ensure I understand what you're getting at: the sex (or other intimate connection) is the symbol for love conquering all that stands between the lovers? Once the lovers get to the point where they can "connect" it means they've broken down the mental/physical/social/etc barriers that stand between them, and they "win" the romance.

 

[Heliotrope]

It's the symbol. Exactly. The symbol could be many things. In Middle Grades you can't go further than a first kiss or a hand hold. You might go the entire book building up to that one moment. It's not that the plot revolves around a hand hold or a kiss, it is just the symbol for the relationship. "This is something more than friends." "I trust you in an intimate way" sort of thing. The physical connection is showing that there is no barriers anymore.

and they "win" the romance.

Exactly. In traditional romance this may be sex. And it would be important it was sex. It might be the reader's expectation that it was sex, like in the Eloisa James book I posted above. In sweet romance, as Chessie says, or Christian romance, pre-marital sex is a huge no-no, so you have to do other things to keep the heat up, and show it is a romantic relationship in other ways, but physical intimacy is still important. There is still sexual tension, even if there is no sex.

 

[Annoyingkid]

Let me give you a brief, fairly tame, example from the chapter I'm currently writing.

Alerich peered into the refrigerator, curious. “I am game for anything sweet, and I like onions. I don’t know what a ‘Vidalia’ is, but I’m willing to try it.”

Winter turned around and found Alerich’s warm throat mere inches from her face, his hand resting on the fridge door just above her head. She breathed him in, the spicy scent bringing her skin to tingling life and causing things to tighten low in her body. She tilted her head back and found him looking down at her, pupils dilated, lips slightly parted. Winter found herself wondering what Alerich’s mouth would taste like, feel like against her lips as her legs wrapped around his lean hips. The vivid nature of her imagining brought a flush to her cheeks.

A slight smile tugged at the corner of that mouth, his eyes darkening further as if he could see her thoughts. He slowly dropped his hand from the door, his fingers coming to rest against her blush-warmed cheek.

“Alerich,” she began, her voice breathy.

He blinked once and looked at her as if seeing her for the first time. “Rick.” His voice was quiet. Intimate. “My friends call me Rick. I… I want you to know me. Please, call me Rick.”

Winter smiled up at him and brushed a stray lock of hair from his brow. “It would be my pleasure, Rick.” She turned and laid a quick kiss on his palm. “Let’s make dinner.” Winter twined her fingers with his and led the way back to the cutting board, cheese and dressing held close to her chest for balance.

This is just the opening salvo, and they'll be having sex on screen in the next chapter. But, as you can see, this exchange is about intimacy, about discovering vulnerability and making a connection with another person. That is why we show sex, because it can be a very vulnerable, intimate exchange between individuals... or not. Sometimes it's painful and hurtful. Either way, it is a powerful storytelling device and to leave the reader with gently wafting curtains and a rehash of what happened the next morning is to miss an opportunity for some major character development to happen right before the reader's eyes.

You just gave an example of vulnerable intimacy without sex, but you said sex establishes vulnerable intimacy. Which makes me wonder if the sex will just be more of the same, or actually bring something different to the table that this scene you quoted already brings, I don't really consider that scene tame. It borders on too much for me. Wondering what someone's mouth would taste like is weird. So I can imagine the actual sex scene would really be too much.

 

[LWFlouisa]

I mean the whole premise behind Literotica, is reducing the taboo behind sex and making it OK even for literary fiction.:/

 

[Svrtnsse]

I was going to say I haven't had any sex in any of the stories I'd written, but then the concept of the intimate connection came up and there's one of those that I can bring up as an example...

Enar's Vacation is a story about a man who goes on vacation for the first time in decades. He's lonely and awkward and doesn't quite know what do do with himself. Throughout the story he ends up falling for a woman he meets and towards the end they find themselves stranded in an old brew house in the middle of a terrible storm.

One thing leads to another and after a while they end up rather drunk and making out with each other. I could have faded out right as they start getting close to each other, leaving the reader to figure out the rest. However, the "rest" isn't obvious here.

As things get a bit heated the woman realizes that things are going a bit too fast and decides it's time to take it down a notch. Enar, the man, gets the idea that something's wrong, but doesn't quite understand what, since everything was so nice and wonderful just a moment ago. He wants to get back to that moment where everything was fine and awesome.

In that way, it's not actually a sex scene as such, but it does show the intimate physical connection between the characters, and it's necessary to show that in order to show what consequences it has for them. It starts out all sweet and pleasurable and lovely, and then it takes a turn that's hopefully unexpected without being unreasonable.

Spoiler

What happens after the woman decides to pull out is that Enar decides the best way to woo her again is to sing her a song. He stands up, the booze goes to his head and he falls over and goes to sleep. This is where the scene fades out and the next chapter begins with a massive hangover (write what you know).

 

[Chessie2]

No I'm not missing the point, I'm just not articulating myself well. Sex is a big part of romance, love, wether it is a first kiss, or hand holding, or full on sex. Being physically intimate is a big part of love (even if it is only a first kiss). It would be challenging to write a romance plot line without some physical intimacy, and readers expect it. That is all I'm getting at.

Of course in Christian romance or sweet romance it is not there, which is why I said "first kiss" counts. Physical intimacy ). Often times the whole set up of the novel is to get to the first kiss by the end. For me that counts as "sex" for the general purpose of the argument.

They don't wait an entire book to get there though. The goal isn't physical intimacy, it's emotional intimacy and the phtsical just shows that. You said it's all about the sex and it isn't. Many times you claim to know something inorder to give people advice and you don't. It's misleading.

 

[Heliotrope]

Chessie, did you read any of my posts? I never once said the goal was the sex. I said the plot is the romance and sex is a part of that. In some types of stories it is an integral part. In some types of stories it is the best way of showing the emotional development between the two characters. I never once said it was the goal.

As far as building up... did you not, yourself, say "slow burn"? Give the reader a little bit, but then take it away? Save it as long as you can? Is that not build up?

Good grief, I'm not arguing anything different than what you have been arguing. Taking personal attacks at my knowledge base is rude. I have been nothing but supportive of what you have been saying.

AnnoyingKid is arguing sex is almost never necessary. I'm supporting you in saying that in certain types ( not all types) romance, it is a super useful (often integral part) of showing character development. Then you attack me for supporting you.

 

[LWFlouisa]

For context, what genre are we referring to here?

 

[Annoyingkid]

I find it interesting that most, the vast majority of romances for movies and tv don't need to show the sex scenes, but for novels people argue that it's necessary. Well because the people in visual media get censored, they have to creatively write around it and try to find other ways to achieve what they're looking for. Anyone who writes a sex scene is inevitably going to divide their audience, into those who find it squicky and those who enjoy it. If you're not very good at it, it's going to sound creepy and weird when its translated into prose. Not that the act of sex is weird itself. Its obviously not. The best bet is to be metaphorical with it and not so physical. Like close ups of the guy's or girl's parting lips and dilated pupils, sounds like these people are being put under a microscope in an odd way. It comes across like an aftershave advert that has to cram as much sex appeal as it can into thirty seconds.

 

[Thoras]

For context, what genre are we referring to here?

If you're asking about it from the original post, then I stated there that this was for an adult fantasy novel. However I believe the debate have deviated slightly from that by now, I think some are talking about other genres as well.

 

[LWFlouisa]

If you're asking about it from the original post, then I stated there that this was for an adult fantasy novel. However I believe the debate have deviated slightly from that by now, I think some are talking about other genres as well.

In my case, I'm wondering one would exclude from an erotica, or rather literotica.

 

[Chessie2]

I'm not attacking or arguing with you, Helio. I simply disagree in that sex is the end goal and that's what I interpreted from your statement I quoted. Disagreeing is not arguing or fighting.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Right, so I went back and read the original post now.

If I'm reading a fantasy novel I usually won't expect there to be any detailed sex in the story. I'll expect there to be action and combat, a little bit of magic and a little bit of romance - the usual stuff. I don't expect to read detailed sex scenes, but unless I'm reading in public (like on a train or in a coffee shop or so) it probably won't bother me.
Where it might be an issue is if the sex scene feels out of place, like if the writer is putting it in just to get their jollies of, or to try and be cool/edgy. That's the kind of thing I'd have to judge on a case by case basis though. It's not a situation where I can just draw a line and say that everything on the far side is wrong, and on the near side it's right.

As for writing a sex scene and having your friends or family read it...
Yeah, that might be awkward, but it's part of being a writer. People will read your things and they will have all kinds of opinions on it. What I'm thinking is that if you can write the sex scene in such a way that it feels like a natural part of the story, then go for it. If you're unsure you can write it without it feeling gratuitous, then it may be easier to stay away from it.
My advice would be to write it, let it sit for a bit and then get back to it and see how you feel about it. If it works, it works. If it doesn't work, cut it out.

Again though, the awkward bit. If the scene is good and it fits with the story, it won't be awkward.

 

[Thoras]

Right, so I went back and read the original post now.

If I'm reading a fantasy novel I usually won't expect there to be any detailed sex in the story. I'll expect there to be action and combat, a little bit of magic and a little bit of romance - the usual stuff. I don't expect to read detailed sex scenes, but unless I'm reading in public (like on a train or in a coffee shop or so) it probably won't bother me.
Where it might be an issue is if the sex scene feels out of place, like if the writer is putting it in just to get their jollies of, or to try and be cool/edgy. That's the kind of thing I'd have to judge on a case by case basis though. It's not a situation where I can just draw a line and say that everything on the far side is wrong, and on the near side it's right.

As for writing a sex scene and having your friends or family read it...
Yeah, that might be awkward, but it's part of being a writer. People will read your things and they will have all kinds of opinions on it. What I'm thinking is that if you can write the sex scene in such a way that it feels like a natural part of the story, then go for it. If you're unsure you can write it without it feeling gratuitous, then it may be easier to stay away from it.
My advice would be to write it, let it sit for a bit and then get back to it and see how you feel about it. If it works, it works. If it doesn't work, cut it out.

Again though, the awkward bit. If the scene is good and it fits with the story, it won't be awkward.

Thanks mate, you make some great points!

 

[Chessie2]

I would totally post one of my love scenes on here but they are not tame at all. I write very steamy scenes...lol.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Thanks mate, you make some great points!

Thanks, glad it helped.

I would totally post one of my love scenes on here but they are not tame at all. I write very steamy scenes...lol.

That's what they're meant to be though - probably better to leave them in dark.

 

[Heliotrope]

I'm not attacking or arguing with you, Helio. I simply disagree in that sex is the end goal and that's what I interpreted from your statement I quoted. Disagreeing is not arguing or fighting.

I'm sorry if I overreacted Chessie. Thanks for the explanation I see how my words could have been interpreted that way. I spent the better part of this morning going back over them. I really was just trying to support you and Lowen, who I know both write romance, and who have shown in many ways that these scenes are often the best way of approaching your character's inner conflict. I honestly meant no disrespect to you or your genre. I'm sorry if did not articulate myself properly and put out the wrong information. You are correct in that I don't know everything about every singe genre, though I do study, and I do try