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Sex?

Gratuitous anything is bad writing. Bad sex scenes are usually bad because the writer has (for whatever reason) disengaged from the reality of what is happening. In real life, sex usually has consequences (especially when done for the first time, as so many literary sex scenes are). Two paths have been brought together (even if only temporarily) and this has to be dealt with - people change after they've 'done it' - and this has consequences for a story. If the writer is not properly dealing with the set up or the consequences, then I guarantee they are not really in the room with the characters when they write the sex scene.

Let me ask a question of those who've written sex scenes: REMOVED

Hi The Dark One. It seems as though you're being a little pointed here. I'd say that I don't know every book or story and don't know if gratuitous something might be good for it or not. I will agree it's hard to do gratuity appropriately depending on how you're defining gratuity and what you're trying to accomplish.

"Gratuitous" is defined as "uncalled for, lacking good reason" or "given for free", so if you mean that the sex did not have a good reason to include from the author's standpoint, then that's redundant with saying it's bad writing. If it was not done with good reason from the characters, then that depends on how it's done. If the sex was done free of charge on the other hand, then I don't see a problem with that. And lastly, if it appears uncalled for or lacking good reason from your perspective, then I also don't see a problem with that.

I also think the question you've asked is a loaded one or at least a leading one.

Finally, it doesn't have to have consequences and consequences don't have to be discussed even if it does have them. It all depends on what your story is about, what your story is trying to accomplish and other considerations that you take. If you're saying that you don't want to read stories where consequences are not discussed and sex isn't meaningful/life-changing, then I respect your opinion, but I also respect the writers that want to tell those stories.

It's possible I'm responding to what appeared to be a charged/judgemental post where there was no charge or judgement (likely even, I just woke up after 3 hours sleep :p), and if so, I apologize.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
In real life, sex usually has consequences (especially when done for the first time, as so many literary sex scenes are). Two paths have been brought together (even if only temporarily) and this has to be dealt with - people change after they've 'done it' - and this has consequences for a story.

Dark One, first, just a heads up that I removed your question. It was a little borderline on explicit.

But I agree wholeheartedly with your point. If the sex is really relevant to the story, then it will develop the characters. There are always consequences, although they're not always negative, or as clear as a pregnancy. It changes the relationship.

I also want to respond to a few people who have said it has to build the plot. I think that's missing something.

Plot =/= Story

The plot is basically a list of events that happen in your novel. A novel is about the relationship between your characters and your plot and your setting. Sex can be relevant to that story without having the sex turn someone into a vampire or have the characters arrested for adultery or otherwise be a big turning point in your plot.
 

Devora

Sage
Dark One, first, just a heads up that I removed your question. It was a little borderline on explicit.

But I agree wholeheartedly with your point. If the sex is really relevant to the story, then it will develop the characters. There are always consequences, although they're not always negative, or as clear as a pregnancy. It changes the relationship.

I also want to respond to a few people who have said it has to build the plot. I think that's missing something.

Plot =/= Story

The plot is basically a list of events that happen in your novel. A novel is about the relationship between your characters and your plot and your setting. Sex can be relevant to that story without having the sex turn someone into a vampire or have the characters arrested for adultery or otherwise be a big turning point in your plot.

I think the major problem most writers have about writing sex scenes in stories is that 90% of the time they're just pure fluff. If you were to slim down the sex scenes in 50 shades of Grey, You'd probably have a 60 page book.

The common argument I'm seeing in the thread is that usually sex scenes (usually the explicit ones) don't strengthen the story and usually come off a mindlessly self-indulgent tangent.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
The common argument I'm seeing in the thread is that usually sex scenes (usually the explicit ones) don't strengthen the story and usually come off a mindlessly self-indulgent tangent.

I'm not really advocating for more or fewer scenes. I guess I'm saying:

- Don't use them if you don't want to.
- They should only have as much or as little detail as befits the tone of your story.
- Only use them if they advance the story, which includes more than just the plot.
- Understand that it should change/develop the characters involved.
- If it doesn't advance the story or fit the tone, cut it.
 

Mindfire

Istar
I think the major problem most writers have about writing sex scenes in stories is that 90% of the time they're just pure fluff. If you were to slim down the sex scenes in 50 shades of Grey, You'd probably have a 60 page book.

The common argument I'm seeing in the thread is that usually sex scenes (usually the explicit ones) don't strengthen the story and usually come off a mindlessly self-indulgent tangent.

I'm not sure we should compare the kind of writing our members mostly focus on with 50 Shades, which is literally a glorified PWP fanfiction. Criticizing 50 Shades for gratuitous titillation and lack of plot is like criticizing a dung beetle for rolling dung.
 

Rob P

Minstrel
I remember seeing an interview by GRRM about the sex scenes in GoT. He mentioned that he could describe in great gory detail how an axe was driven into someone's head without anyone batting an eye but just mention sex, even a little and everyone goes nuts.

His rationale was that these characters have lives and sex is a part of their lives, whether it is exposed or not. Part of living involves this act and all the consequences that lead from it.

Writing classes, books and self-help bits and pieces tend to apply broad strokes to this area suffice to say that you tread lightly. A sex scene badly written is just about the worst scene that could ever be written badly. Also, not everyone is comfortable with writing such scenes, even loving and intimate ones.

We deal in bringing forth the emotions of our characters and tease those of our readers, both of whom experience love and sex in differing detail but experience it nonetheless. To believe they don't think about such things, desire such things, enjoy or even hate such things is to ignore a part of their emotional make-up.

So if you are confident in handling this material and it has a part to play in your story then it should be used but only up to the amount needed and no more. If you are not comfortable then don't include it or refer to it but keeping details slight. The emotional aspects afterwards will need to be addressed though.

I have used such scenes but generally they have only been used just enough to make the point some with greater detail than others. I have not spent more than 400 words in total over six intimate scenes where sex was involved.
 
I'm not really advocating for more or fewer scenes. I guess I'm saying:

- Don't use them if you don't want to.
- They should only have as much or as little detail as befits the tone of your story.
- Only use them if they advance the story, which includes more than just the plot.
- Understand that it should change/develop the characters involved.
- If it doesn't advance the story or fit the tone, cut it.

I agree with the exception about "changing/developing" the characters. It could be an example of the character acting as the character and showcasing this to the reader. Maybe it changes their opinion of the character, but the character him/her/itself does not need to change.

I'm not sure we should compare the kind of writing our members mostly focus on with 50 Shades, which is literally a glorified PWP fanfiction. Criticizing 50 Shades for gratuitous titillation and lack of plot is like criticizing a dung beetle for rolling dung.

There's a big subset of fantasy/speculative fiction that has erotica content and themes. I'm not sure what PWP means (at work so a little leery to Google it), but it was a fanfiction of a fantasy in the first place, so that right there shows you that talking about 50 shades is at least tangentially related to writing fantasy.

With the exception of the few works from members I've been lucky enough to read, I'm really not sure what everyone's writing styles and preferred subgenres are on Mythic Scribes.
 

Mindfire

Istar
There's a big subset of fantasy/speculative fiction that has erotica content and themes. I'm not sure what PWP means (at work so a little leery to Google it), but it was a fanfiction of a fantasy in the first place, so that right there shows you that talking about 50 shades is at least tangentially related to writing fantasy.

With the exception of the few works from members I've been lucky enough to read, I'm really not sure what everyone's writing styles and preferred subgenres are on Mythic Scribes.

PWP means "Plot? What Plot?" It's a common fanfiction label used for a story that's basically What It Says On the Tin: sleazy, plotless, and blatantly self-indulgent.
 

Ireth

Myth Weaver
PWP means "Plot? What Plot?" It's a common fanfiction label used for a story that's basically What It Says On the Tin: sleazy, plotless, and blatantly self-indulgent.

Actually it can mean either "P0rn with Plot" or "Plot with P0rn". Either way, pretty much what you said.
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
I love writing intimate scenes between characters. I have to admit, I've made a lot more love in my life than war, so the scenes themselves come faster to me than fights, but also, I think there's something really genuine about having attraction a part of a story.

Now, maybe I'm a weird one, but don't most people look at someone who catches their eye? Don't you flirt a little (even if you're married) with a cute waiter or person in line next to you in the store? It's a part of being a living, breathing creature.

Haha, if you ask me, it's way more legitimate to write a book without magic, creatures, even religion than it is to write characters who do not have sexual desires. It's nature. And while many people can stifle those voices that drive them to give a stranger the key to their hotel room or sneak into the bathroom with a hottie in a bar... we all have those thoughts and feelings that make us notice and desire intimate contact.

I think the point is, that a character will do what character will do. if I show a woman who frequently gives away her room key to strangers... it speaks about her character, maybe her financial situation. Probably even her self-respect.

If I show a character who glances at a handsome courtier but retains her stoic dignity, that too speaks about her character, her nature and her willpower. It's all perspective.

Now as for writing the scenes... in some cases, I show two people waking next to each other or turning out the lights. More often, I show the extent of the scene, from the POV that has the most to gain/ lose because of the sex itself.

Sometimes, I go for the whole enchilda, detailing every movement, every glance and every comment. I wrote a scene that was about 3500 words, where the characters (strangers) talk briefly, jump into bed, and then conclude with a heartfelt moment after. I have to say, to some on this site, that's mind-blowing. I've been criticized for over-doing it. But for anyone who's read the scene... they only had nice things to say. So there you go. Avoid a scene because it's too long? Trim it up and pare it down so it's not too graphic? I vote "no". HAHA :)
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
I should mention in the scene I detailed above, I accomplished the 3500 word scene without being grotesque, disgusting or using words that made me feel like cringing. I avoid being too scientific or "Harlequin". I like a good honest sex scene if anyone is taking requests. When I write intimate scenes, I try to write it just how people do it. No holds barred, no over-egging the pudding. I like it kinda raw, a little awkward, and positively real.
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
In fact, I think that's where many sex scenes go wrong... They portray the women as helpless virgins and the men as womanizing rogues. I've been accused of making my leading males a little too "ideal" but what can I say? I've known a lot of great guys...

I think the key to making a romantic scene work is knowing the characters and portraying the lovemaking like you would anything else THAT PERSON does. Sure, maybe he's great at swinging a sword, but scared of falling in love. Or maybe he thinks she's never kissed a man before but then reveals she knows her way around a man's body like an expert and reads his cues with apparent ease..

I think my best love scenes were the ones I threw something unexpected into. Like one newlywed couple that waits to seal the deal (for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which is trust issues) and when they finally go to bed, she asks him if they could move from the bed out onto the balcony. Yeh, that was one of my favorites. OR, in one, (where two teenagers are fooling round in the garden, groping and what have you) her father barges in and throws the boy out, telling him to get lost. Or another (not a sex scene) where I have I have a man kiss a goddess. He's terrified, shaking in his boots and his friend's watching. After, the friend says, "You're a braver man than I am. What in the world were you thinking?" The MC replies, "Sure, you love her as her followers, treat her as your mother, but she longs to be loved as a woman..." :) The goddess does him a special favor for his observant understanding.

However and whyever you write a love scene in, it needs to be fitting to the characters first and foremost, but it also needs to be entertaining. For me, intimacy is in every story, because it's in everyday life. But, it can't all be pulling stranger by their collar into a dark room and ripping their clothes off with your teeth. That gets old and has been done. If you're like me and enjoy writing intimate scenes, I'd advise you to think about what sex is really like and throw some of the real into the fantasy. I know for me, it makes it a whole lot more fun to write and read later.
 

Devora

Sage
I'm not sure we should compare the kind of writing our members mostly focus on with 50 Shades, which is literally a glorified PWP fanfiction. Criticizing 50 Shades for gratuitous titillation and lack of plot is like criticizing a dung beetle for rolling dung.

My point was that sometimes the details in sex scenes don't amount to anything but extra padding for book/story. It would be possible for one to include a sex scene, but without so much explicit detail.

50 shades wasn't the best example to use, but I was only using it to get my point across.
 

Nebuchadnezzar

Troubadour
50 shades wasn't the best example to use, but I was only using it to get my point across.

I'd actually say Fifty Shades is a great example for this topic. It sold over 40 million copies worldwide and, as you say, without the sex scenes it would be maybe 60 pages long. The reason people buy it is for the sex scenes. I'd say it has essentially taken erotica and turned it into a new, mainstream, New York Times best-selling genre.

One can speculate as to why this has happened. One theory that I give a bit of credence is that with the advent of electronic readers (Kindle, Nook, iPad, etc), it is now possible for people to buy and consume erotic fiction without anyone knowing they're doing so.

Personally I don't write explicit sex scenes in my stories because in a strange way I feel connected to and protective of my characters. It's hard to explain, but I feel like what they do in intimate moments is their business and not the reader's. So while I may show the lead-up followed by fade to black, or show the morning after, the sex itself I don't intrude on.

By the same token, there can be a fair bit of violence and combat in my stories but I don't get graphic about it. Maybe I'm just squeamish or something.
 
Possibly off-topic, but has anyone else noticed that Internet fiction and published fiction reverse what's considered more weird and less weird with sex scenes? In Internet fiction, you're considered not very weird if you read or write vanilla het, and more weird if you read or write fetishy sex. In published fiction, books with vanilla sex are usually considered a little iffy, but critically praised works often have bizarre and fetishistic sex scenes.* (The idea seems to be that, since this sex is too weird for most readers to enjoy, it must have a deeper meaning.)

*If you want to know exactly what I'm talking about, read reviews of The Evolution of Bruno Littlemore, then read the book itself. I don't think I'd even be allowed to describe some of the sex in that book. Or, for a lesser example, note how weirdly written even the vanilla sex in Middlesex is. The closest I can think of to a normal sex scene in a recent critically praised book is the one in Atonement.
 

Caged Maiden

Staff
Article Team
That's an interesting take on it. I mentioned before that my best ones were ones I threw something unexpected in. But I never considered that vanilla sex scenes might be more preferred for whatever reason. Hmm.. Interesting.

My favorites are realistic, like, especially with awkwardness. I know that's certainly not the same as fetishes. But I wouldn't feel comfortable writing fetishes (which I think crosses the line into entertaining through sexual content with the intent to arouse a reader). My love scenes aren't meant to have that sort of specific effect. More to connect to a reader. WHo can't relate to that awkward moment when you miss and kiss someone's nose in the dark or a guy who holds his weight weird because he's afraid he's going to crush you. Or, that moment after, where you're wondering what's next. Do we cuddle or can I get up and leave? HAHA Yeah. i try to keep it real. I want a reader to smile and think, "I know exactly how he/she feels right now."
 
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Mindfire

Istar
I think Caged Maiden is on to something. Sex scenes aren't my cup of tea, but if it's to be done, I like her way of doing it. (That came out so wrong. It sounded better in my head. Apologies.) I think it should be about connecting to the characters, not about using titillation as a selling point.
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
I am not even going to describe what the Aylar reproductive rituals are like, but I'll tell you this: It's completely inhuman, and if you described to Aylars all the complexity and complications of human sexuality, they would laugh for two weeks and then tell you to stop making up impossible things.

Now, regarding the descriptions of sexual encounters in Fantasy about human characters:

I think that, unless you are writing Romantic Fantasy or maybe some sort of Fantasy Erotica, there is absolutely no need to write that style of scenes in Fantasy stories.
 

Jamber

Sage
My favourite sex scene is what's left out at the end of Jane Eyre.
Ooh, except for the strip poker Michelin Man scene in The Crying of Lot 49. And Rachel Pollack's Unquenchable Fire sex scene with pin-sticking and laughter.
I can't think why someone would go to the trouble of writing a sex scene if they can't be bothered using it to advance the story somehow?
In erotica, sex is the story, but we don't generally expect that in fantasy. Even The Many Coloured Land (which had many sex scenes) used those scenes thematically (passivity, persuasion, co-option in enslavement). Anne Rice's Servant of the Bones slipped into pure erotica territory near the end, and coincidentally fell down as a story at that point.
It just seems a wasted opportunity, to me. :)
 
Hi The Dark One. It seems as though you're being a little pointed here. I'd say that I don't know every book or story and don't know if gratuitous something might be good for it or not. I will agree it's hard to do gratuity appropriately depending on how you're defining gratuity and what you're trying to accomplish.

"Gratuitous" is defined as "uncalled for, lacking good reason" or "given for free", so if you mean that the sex did not have a good reason to include from the author's standpoint, then that's redundant with saying it's bad writing. If it was not done with good reason from the characters, then that depends on how it's done. If the sex was done free of charge on the other hand, then I don't see a problem with that. And lastly, if it appears uncalled for or lacking good reason from your perspective, then I also don't see a problem with that.

I also think the question you've asked is a loaded one or at least a leading one.

Finally, it doesn't have to have consequences and consequences don't have to be discussed even if it does have them. It all depends on what your story is about, what your story is trying to accomplish and other considerations that you take. If you're saying that you don't want to read stories where consequences are not discussed and sex isn't meaningful/life-changing, then I respect your opinion, but I also respect the writers that want to tell those stories.

It's possible I'm responding to what appeared to be a charged/judgemental post where there was no charge or judgement (likely even, I just woke up after 3 hours sleep :p), and if so, I apologize.

Have to say I was amazed that my question was deleted. It is a perfectly natural question for this thread and not remotely explicit. I didn't ask people to describe in gory details how their writing made them feel - I simply asked did they feel anything. This is critical to the type of writing we're discussing.
 
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