The significance of plot without conflict

[The Dark One]

I think there's a huge difference between absolutely zero conflict and I want a story that's character-driven. I thought we were talking about the first?

Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter and Game of Thrones are all character driven. The plots, even the adventuring aspects, are used to highlight those characters. Lord of the Rings is not about a ring but about a hobbit.

Are you kidding?

LOTR is certainly partially character driven, but it's the classic, watershed, fantasy plot. Ancient evil rising again, searching for that ring of power that would make his victory certain. Ring falls into the hands of a small unlikely hero who must first get the ring to safety against overwhelming odds and then set off on a quest to destroy the ring in the absolute heart of the enemy's realm...

The characters are only interesting (and evolving) because of the role they play within the structure of the plot.

To suggest the story is character driven is to somehow suggest that Sauron's actions were somehow inspired by Frodo's personality.

 

[Devor]

Are you kidding?

No, I'm not. LOTR opens with a Birthday party of all things. If you cannot see how even a story with a strong plot is character driven, and how the strength of the novel doesn't come from the plot but from the character's reactions to it, then I suggest reconsidering the way in you which you read and write books.

Also, as has been pointed out elsewhere, Sauron's failure was caused by his inability to understand Frodo's personality.

 

[Ghost]

The article was interesting, and it makes me wonder. I'll have to reread it later.

This may be stupid, but how do I figure out what the conflict of a story is?

Let's say my story is about a mountain climber, Jeff. The story starts with Jeff halfway up the mountain. He reminisces about another time he climbed a mountain. He climbs the mountain without any trouble. At the top, he takes in the view and waxes poetic about what he sees. Jeff decides this will be the last mountain he climbs because whatever happened the other time made climbing mountains less satisfying or less enjoyable, and he wishes it hadn't happened. The end.

I haven't written that exact story, but I have a few where the character proceeds toward a goal without any setbacks then they have a revelation followed by a strong feeling (doubt, sadness, shame, etc). Maybe they have a major revelation about the world they live in, an emotional reaction, and then smaller revelation about themselves. What would the conflict be in a story like that? The character doesn't struggle to make a decision. Although he's full of doubt, no alternatives are offered and his path is inevitable. I figure it's some sort of internal conflict, but I don't know much about this kind of thing.

 

[Helen]

An article by @stilleatingoranges, The significance of plot without conflict.

Rates as one of the WORST articles I have ever read. No understanding of story or conflict. Uses the old "eastern wisdom" card as a cover for intellectual retardation. Sorry, but it's really, really bad. If the writer understood Kishōtenketsu, he or she would have come to a different conclusion.

Perfect example of someone taking a concept and reinterpreting it badly. Positively damaging.

I don't want to offend stilleatingoranges, but he just hasn't thought about it.

 

[Helen]

No, I'm not. LOTR opens with a Birthday party of all things. If you cannot see how even a story with a strong plot is character driven, and how the strength of the novel doesn't come from the plot but from the character's reactions to it, then I suggest reconsidering the way in you which you read and write books.

Then there is the (very powerful) argument that no story is character driven. It may seem odd, but think about it a minute. It'll flip your head.

 

[Jabrosky]

Rates as one of the WORST articles I have ever read. No understanding of story or conflict. Uses the old "eastern wisdom" card as a cover for intellectual retardation. Sorry, but it's really, really bad. If the writer understood Kishōtenketsu, he or she would have come to a different conclusion.

Perfect example of someone taking a concept and reinterpreting it badly. Positively damaging.

I don't want to offend stilleatingoranges, but he just hasn't thought about it.

Since you apparently know more about this Kishōtenketsu than the article writer, can you explain where he went wrong?

 

[The Dark One]

No, I'm not. LOTR opens with a Birthday party of all things. If you cannot see how even a story with a strong plot is character driven, and how the strength of the novel doesn't come from the plot but from the character's reactions to it, then I suggest reconsidering the way in you which you read and write books.

Also, as has been pointed out elsewhere, Sauron's failure was caused by his inability to understand Frodo's personality.

Good god! And there was I thinking that moderators were supposed to be keepers of the peace...

If you reread my post you'll see that we are both talking about characterisation within the lines of plot.

As for the way I read and write books...I won't be changing. It's worked very well so far, thanks for asking.

 

[kennyc]

... an argument can be often made and still be wrong. I happen to disagree with the argument because conflict is based on structure not prominence.

Also, the chances of me ever engaging in hyperbole are like a trillion billion to one against.

I think the 'twist' he discusses IS conflict, just not what HE describes as conflict which seems to be more like physical cliff-hanger type conflict.

It seems the article writer is talking more about story structure than plot.

There is a great analysis of plot vs story vs character based on James Baldwin's "Sonny's Blues" chapter 9 of The Making of a Story by Alice LaPlante.

 

[Penpilot]

The article was interesting, and it makes me wonder. I'll have to reread it later.

This may be stupid, but how do I figure out what the conflict of a story is?

Let's say my story is about a mountain climber, Jeff. The story starts with Jeff halfway up the mountain. He reminisces about another time he climbed a mountain. He climbs the mountain without any trouble. At the top, he takes in the view and waxes poetic about what he sees. Jeff decides this will be the last mountain he climbs because whatever happened the other time made climbing mountains less satisfying or less enjoyable, and he wishes it hadn't happened. The end.

I haven't written that exact story, but I have a few where the character proceeds toward a goal without any setbacks then they have a revelation followed by a strong feeling (doubt, sadness, shame, etc). Maybe they have a major revelation about the world they live in, an emotional reaction, and then smaller revelation about themselves. What would the conflict be in a story like that? The character doesn't struggle to make a decision. Although he's full of doubt, no alternatives are offered and his path is inevitable. I figure it's some sort of internal conflict, but I don't know much about this kind of thing.

The conflict is internal. Without knowing more, it lies in the question of what happened on the other mountain that would make him want to quit. It's the internal argument of should I quit.

 

[ShortHair]

The way I learned it, if you don't have a conflict, you don't have a story. Period. Without a conflict, fiction is a wall of text with no point.

Having said that, I don't see how you can claim a story has no conflict but is still enjoyable. You may not be able to define the conflict to your satisfaction, but you wouldn't keep reading without the promise of some kind of resolution.

 

[kennyc]

The way I learned it, if you don't have a conflict, you don't have a story. Period. Without a conflict, fiction is a wall of text with no point.

Having said that, I don't see how you can claim a story has no conflict but is still enjoyable. You may not be able to define the conflict to your satisfaction, but you wouldn't keep reading without the promise of some kind of resolution.

Well, I know I've seen/read any number of stories that seem to be just character sketches or landscape displays or day in the life without any real conflict of point....

You are right in that they sucked as far as I'm concerned, but clearly they were stories and someone considered them as such because they were published.

Still though, as I explained above I do not see the O.P. example as being conflict-less because the "third panel" IS the conflict.

 

[Feo Takahari]

A good example of story without conflict in a Western work. An injustice may be perceived, but there's no struggle against it--it's merely observed and discussed.

 

[JCFarnham]

For a story to resolve, or rather the mere act of saying resolution (or beginning, middle and END as we were probably taught in school) suggests there is conflict. For example, If there are multiple characters it is very unlikely that all of them will hold exactly the same opinions or morals. Those things create the conflict, even if none of it is ever verbalised (or even only subtextal). For some kind of satisfaction to occur I would need a piece to have an end/resolution, so .. no conflict.. what is there to "end"? Where's the satisfaction?

I'm interested is what I'm saying (good thread, challenging.)

Let's take the example of the teacher.. she may not have to make any huge decisions but can you honestly tell me there would be no conflict in a class of young people? There's always one (anyone who's worked in education should know what I'm talking about you can spot them a mile off). I can't say I would read any slice of life piece that didn't think about that. Slice of life "to me" is about realism. And let's not forget there is always some kind of subtextual conflict. Cultural stuff is a good example and something that comes up in good slice of life all the time.

I'm not saying its impossible to create a story with absolutely no conflict. It's just damn rare to me (and from my point of view totally pointless, for what little its worth haha). A lot of the examples given in thread still present conflict, even if that is "look, here is someone whose life might be really rather different from yours, does that make you feel differently about yourself?" That's exploring the human condition.

Dig deep enough into the story and yourself and you'll find it. If you don't then what it the purpose of that piece of fiction? It hasn't posed any subtext, any questions, hasn't brought anything to light even subtly... Sounds pretty worthless to me.

(whenever I say "to me" I hope you realise I'm talking based on my opinion, based in my context. That is to say, this post is allowed to mean nothing. Just like any text is allowed to mean nothing if you're not "in on it". Yeeeah..)

 

[JCFarnham]

A good example of story without conflict in a Western work. An injustice may be perceived, but there's no struggle against it--it's merely observed and discussed.

Although not acted upon I would still say it has conflict. Those opinions of Newgate its subtle but to me the narrators conflict is all the talk of "we used to...". That suggests that stopped for some reason. Then there's the opinions of the buildings and so on, seemed to me he didn't like them much but felt he had to (as in the mentions of awe and the nostalgia).

Anyway, just my two pence analysis.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

The way I learned it, if you don't have a conflict, you don't have a story. Period. Without a conflict, fiction is a wall of text with no point.

I don't know if lacking conflict makes fiction pointless. Fiction can serve other purposes than to tell a story (if we define "story" as "a series of events that involve conflict"). "Ozymandias" has no conflict (or at least, none that's obvious to me), but it's a tremendously enjoyable and insightful poem whose point is that even the greatest empires will some day fall to dust. But there isn't any obvious conflict, since it isn't a "story" in the way I defined it above.

That said, I agree that I would define "story" as "a series of events that involve conflict." If there's no conflict, it's not a story; it's an anecdote or recounting or journal entry or tone piece. There are things that resemble stories (in that they are a series of events) but involve no conflict. I wouldn't call them stories. It doesn't mean they have no value; I just wouldn't consider them stories.

 

[ThinkerX]

Strange. I always thought stories were about *change* - which might or might not involve conflict.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Strange. I always thought stories were about *change* - which might or might not involve conflict.

How do characters change without conflict?

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

How do characters change without conflict?

People change without conflict, in some cases. There are things I did a lot when I was younger, and I look back on them now and roll my eyes at how juvenile I was—but the reason I stopped doing them was simply because I aged and my priorities changed. There was never a Teachable Moment where I realized that what I was doing was juvenile. It just faded away.

That said, change without conflict usually isn't very interesting to read about.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

People change without conflict, in some cases. There are things I did a lot when I was younger, and I look back on them now and roll my eyes at how juvenile I was--but the reason I stopped doing them was simply because I aged and my priorities changed. There was never a Teachable Moment where I realized that what I was doing was juvenile. It just faded away.

That said, change without conflict usually isn't very interesting to read about.

People might change without conflict....might. Characters however? Well I just don't see how that's feasible. Showing such a gradual change, or a change that hardly noticeable would not only be exceedingly boring (agree with you there) but hard to accomplish with a novel's word count.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

People might change without conflict....might. Characters however? Well I just don't see how that's feasible. Showing such a gradual change, or a change that hardly noticeable would not only be exceedingly boring (agree with you there) but hard to accomplish with a novel's word count.

Oh, I totally agree. I didn't say it would be interesting, just that it's possible.