The significance of plot without conflict

[Ophiucha]

An article by @stilleatingoranges, The significance of plot without conflict.

I really liked this article, as a writer heavily influenced by non-Western and 'literary' fiction. The comic example was a wonderful way to illustrate the point, I thought. And I certainly agree with the point, as I tend to enjoy stories with little to no conflict (at least as much as I do stories with conflict, anyway). What do you guys think?

 

[Steerpike]

I like the article and the illustrations of the author's point. I'd like to find an example of a longer work of fiction with no conflict just to see whether it works for me.

 

[Jabrosky]

It's an interesting cultural perspective, though I agree with Steerpike that specific examples of plots without conflicts would have strengthened his argument. However, I've always gravitated towards more action-packed stories, so in my case some kind of conflict or tension is necessary.

 

[Steerpike]

It's an interesting cultural perspective, though I agree with Steerpike that specific examples of plots without conflicts would have strengthened his argument. However, I've always gravitated towards more action-packed stories, so in my case some kind of conflict or tension is necessary.

I like conflict as well. But I am curious as to how a plot with no conflict would work in a longer piece, if anyone has an example. I have read a few "eastern" works of fiction, but they all had conflict.

 

[Ophiucha]

While not following the above structure, a popular book series called The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency has, for all intents and purposes, no real conflict. A good half of the books are her drinking tea and contemplating a case or some instance in the world, but she faces no trials herself - all of her cases are solved by being introduced to them, collecting evidence, and then solving the case. There is never any obstacle in that middle stage. She simply goes to the library, looks something up, and returns with her findings. But they are well-liked.

Arguably, about 99% of the slice of life genre could qualify. In the article, she brings up the manga format of yonkoma, the four panel comics. But these are often part of a series, and many of them are adapted into anime, which run for 20+ episodes with nary a conflict in sight (and the few conflicts that exist are so minor -- "should I have tea or coffee?" -- or are fixed so easily that it barely should qualify as a conflict so much as the next step in a process).

I've seen a couple of kabuki plays which follow the 4-point-structure, as well.

 

[Jabrosky]

While not following the above structure, a popular book series called The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency has, for all intents and purposes, no real conflict. A good half of the books are her drinking tea and contemplating a case or some instance in the world, but she faces no trials herself - all of her cases are solved by being introduced to them, collecting evidence, and then solving the case. There is never any obstacle in that middle stage. She simply goes to the library, looks something up, and returns with her findings. But they are well-liked.

Exactly why are those books popular? Are they particularly informative?

 

[Ophiucha]

I'd imagine they like the characters and the writing. I've only seen the TV show, which makes a few changes, but I really enjoyed all of the characters on the show. If they're much like their literary counterparts, I'd certainly read them.

 

[Steerpike]

I'm going to look for one of them.

 

[Devor]

There's a lot of stories, outside of fantasy, in which the conflict is personalized in nature, and the plot is just a platform over which the emotional journey develops.

I think a plot without conflict would feel weird in Fantasy, as a plot-driven conflict is a major strength of the genre. But it can be extremely useful for a chapter here and there, or for subplotting.

I would love to see a more relevant example of the kishōtenketsu format than a soda machine.

 

[Ophiucha]

There's a manga I quite like, Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou, which is science fiction/slice of life. Most chapters are about the main girl, Alpha (an android), running her cafe and talking with her friends, or riding around on her motorbike. It takes place in a post-apocalyptic world, too, but there is no continuous conflict or even mini conflicts in the individual chapters. It's just the rather long life of a robot girl as time passes. It's quite sweet, and oddly optimistic given the setting.

I don't think it being fantasy means it has to be plot-driven, or have a conflict at all. Some worlds are so interesting that I would like to see an average person on an average day. There have been some fascinating settings in fantasy fiction, with no sun or two moons, with dragons living among men, and while the stories of their heroes and their ends are gripping, I don't think the stories of their school life or bakeries would be less interesting. I read many stories more for the setting than anything else.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

I read the article. I'm sure he's correct as far as he goes—in that you can have plot (that is, a series of events) without conflict... I just don't really see how it's going to be an interesting series of events. Slice-of-life can, I suppose, be a little bit interesting if there's some novelty to it (seeing a slice of a kind of life you're not familiar with, like the life of someone in another culture). But reading a story that's ultimately no different than me living my own life... why would I bother?

I dunno, maybe it is just a cultural thing, but I think Westerners writing for Western audiences are going to have a lot of trouble gaining traction with stories that lack conflict.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I read the article. I'm sure he's correct as far as he goes--in that you can have plot (that is, a series of events) without conflict... I just don't really see how it's going to be an interesting series of events. Slice-of-life can, I suppose, be a little bit interesting if there's some novelty to it (seeing a slice of a kind of life you're not familiar with, like the life of someone in another culture). But reading a story that's ultimately no different than me living my own life... why would I bother?

I dunno, maybe it is just a cultural thing, but I think Westerners writing for Western audiences are going to have a lot of trouble gaining traction with stories that lack conflict.

Agreed... I don't think a story w/o some form of conflict would be able to hold my interest.

 

[Devor]

I don't think it being fantasy means it has to be plot-driven, or have a conflict at all.

I might have misspoke just a little. I only meant that plot (and setting) have more power and prominence in fantasy than in other types of books. Character, Plot and Setting are the three things to think about, and Character of course should usually dominate. But a strong Plot is one of the reasons people read fantasy, and I think skipping it would cost you a lot of readers in a book marketed in the genre.

That said, I could see something like a slice of life working in fantasy if there were strong themes and messages which related to the modern reader. If there's elements of political commentary or visionary fiction, I could see a novel finding a substantial audience with minimal plot-driven conflict. Also, if the emphasis of the work is on historical fiction, with only minor elements of appropriate fantasy, I could see it working. I could add paranormal romance in some cases, but I think there's still some elements of conflict in romance.

The long and short of it, however, is that I think it would have to be written more like a story from a different genre where it's more common, and marketed as such, for it to really work. I have trouble imagining how it can work well as a straight fantasy.

But none of this interests me so much as the concept of kishōtenketsu, which actually utilizes a different way of storytelling. The conflict is in the reader - the one created by the disconnect between the first two acts and the third - which the writer is taking advantage of. That's much more intriguing than slice of life and messaging. I think we're talking about the wrong thing.

 

[Ophiucha]

I'm kind of surprised how many people really wouldn't read a story without conflict.

@Devor, I suppose my disconnect is as somebody who never has read fantasy primarily for the plots, and even in the strict scope of Western fantasy, has always preferred character-driven stories. I'm never going to write a story that's heavy on the plot regardless of whether or not there is conflict, so I guess I've already alienated the majority of the market.

I find 'fantasy' is, perhaps, inadequate as a genre for this very reason. When I hear fantasy, all I think is magic and magical beings. Which could be anything from the story of an artist struggling to gain popularity - if that artist happens to be a dragon - or a swords and sorcery epic. Certainly as long as there is something otherworldly, it is fantasy. It could be written as fantasy, in as much as their is a consistent style for the genre. It simply won't be written as an adventure, which is perhaps what people expect their high fantasy to be, but I can't imagine how it won't be written like a fantasy novel. You'll still be spending time describing worldbuilding, perhaps choosing tones and tendencies similar to an epic fantasy, just without the scope.

I think if you wanted to specifically apply kishōtenketsu to a fantasy novel, you would follow basically the structure of: character introduction, character development, world revelation (introduce a unique fantastical element), conclusion. At least the way I see it. Perhaps for the greatest degree of intrigue to a Western viewer, this revelation could be something ala Twilight Zone, like "here are some nice people, oh look at them giggle and drink tea, oh but did you know that in this world all people are cannibals, and a final sombre look at them drinking tea with those ambiguous 'ham' sandwiches they like so much".

 

[Devor]

@Devor, I suppose my disconnect is as somebody who never has read fantasy primarily for the plots, and even in the strict scope of Western fantasy, has always preferred character-driven stories. I'm never going to write a story that's heavy on the plot regardless of whether or not there is conflict, so I guess I've already alienated the majority of the market.

I think there's a huge difference between absolutely zero conflict and I want a story that's character-driven. I thought we were talking about the first?

Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter and Game of Thrones are all character driven. The plots, even the adventuring aspects, are used to highlight those characters. Lord of the Rings is not about a ring but about a hobbit. Game of Thrones is about politicking - which is to say, characters trying to manipulate their relationships to gain the advantage. And Harry Potter, I think, should be obvious. What makes these stories fantastic is the way the fantasy plots build and create new kinds of characters which readers can't find elsewhere.

Because conflict-plotting is such an ingrained aspect of the genre, I only say it would be difficult to create a fantasy story with zero conflict, unless it was written to the strengths of a genre where that was more common.

But honestly, zero-conflict for an entire novel is extreme. If you or anyone else here is actually writing a zero-conflict novel, I'd love to hear it because I like the feeling of shock.

 

[Christopher Wright]

Are we talking NO CONFLICT at all, or just no overt conflict? Because I find it hard to imagine reading a novel-length story where there isn't even a "man v. himself" style of conflict. I mean, the detective agency example above is still based on conflict. Solving a mystery is a form of conflict resolution, even if it's not direct, hand-to-hand combat.

 

[Ophiucha]

@Devor, I don't think I said character-driven = no conflict, however in your post above, you say that one of the strengths of fantasy is its ability to hold a strong plot, to which I am replying "even in the scope of Western fantasy," which is to say - ignoring Eastern and other non-Western works that have different narrative structures - "I prefer character-driven stories", and by that I don't mean Harry Potter, which I still consider very story-oriented. I like things where characters dominate and overshadow the plot. I also would not consider Lord of the Rings, by any means, primarily character driven.

I gave a possible example of a conflictless story in the post you were replying to, specifically following the four-part structure. And I have a project in the backburner, only one draft so far, which is slice of life/fantasy.

@Christopher Wright, the argument is often made for the detective agency story as not conflict-driven, and it is often brought up in discussions such as these, because the 'conflict', solving a case, is not an obstacle. It is no more a conflict than if you wrote a story about a teacher, who goes to school, teaches her students about Catcher in the Rye, has lunch, teaches her second class which happens to be Latin 101, and then drove home. There is absolutely no challenge to her solving these mysteries, and indeed, given the nature of many of her cases - which are often more research projects than anything - it borders on hyperbole to call it "solving a mystery" at all.

 

[Christopher Wright]

... an argument can be often made and still be wrong. I happen to disagree with the argument because conflict is based on structure not prominence.

Also, the chances of me ever engaging in hyperbole are like a trillion billion to one against.

 

[Penpilot]

Very interesting and informative article, but for my very very western POV and mind, the four act structure as described seems to be the the western style structure with the first act broken into two. With the cartoon example, the conflict isn't overt or complicated, but at the end I think I see it in two possible ways. One, the girl is looking for an excuse to break the ice with a guy she likes and she resolves that conflict with the pop. Two, what happens after? Does the guy reject her?

This is not to say the article is wrong, but it's just the way my mind sees things. Cultural plays into this too. Eastern cultures are high context cultures vs. the low context cultures of the west. I'm too dumb to explain the concept properly so here's the wiki entry on it High context culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia But basically there is cultural baggage that eastern cultures have that can give things deeper meaning base just on the situation. It's like an inside joke. For those in on it, you just have to say, "Fish sticks" and the people who are in on the joke will laugh while others will just look at them confused. For those not in on the joke, they need the context explained to them for the laugh to happen.

So the conflict may be brought to the table by the cultural context of things. My two cents anyway.

 

[Jabrosky]

Has anyone here heard of sketch stories or vignettes? From what I've read about them, they're pieces of prose that don't necessarily have any plot, let alone conflict; they're essentially stream-of-consciousness exercises which can describe scenes, characters, or whatever else is on the writers' minds. I find the idea behind them especially appealing because I frequently have mental images of settings, scenes, and characters that I really want to record but for some reason can't be bothered to stretch them out into whole stories.