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Why all the elves?

What kind of (sentient) species do you write about besides humanoids?

  • I only include human-like species

    Votes: 12 29.3%
  • Mythological "beasts", orcs, elves, pixies, vampires etc.

    Votes: 19 46.3%
  • Gods, deities, ghosts, genies

    Votes: 18 43.9%
  • Sentient animals (other than humans)

    Votes: 15 36.6%
  • Self-imagined sentient species/races

    Votes: 19 46.3%
  • Sentient plants

    Votes: 6 14.6%
  • Other

    Votes: 9 22.0%

  • Total voters
    41

Alva

Scribe
I apologize for the long start but I think it is somewhat bearable in order to set up my question:

- - -

I consider myself an avid reader of fantasy. I crave to read about new worlds, new places, new cultures and new characters. I enjoy new plants and new animals and new everything: architecture, vehicles, trades, clothing, furniture, foods. And by "new" I don't mean "modern" but "different", "foreign", "alternative", "surprising".

I've read my share of Tolkien (and one Eddings) and a whole bunch of other fantasy literature all the way from Susanna Clarke to Le Guin and Robin Hobb. I couldn't stand Narnia (so I never finished it) and I found The King of Elfland's Daughter so boring it's a miracle I managed to just get over with it. I've even read the first part of the Twilight-quartet out of sheer curiosity.

Along with the printed material, I also read a lot short stories on internet.

- - -

And my question stands: why so many elves, orcs, pixies, werewolves, vampires, dragons, goblins, dwarves? (Plus, why all the "dark lords" and "evil minions"?)

I've wondered this for years but since I'm not really interested in any of those creatures myself, it has remained as a big mystery to me. Why do so many fantasy writers show such a burning interest towards - for instance - elves? What is the glamour or the intrigue I just cannot grasp? Tell me! Why do you write about elves and/or orcs? Or dragons? Or unicorns for that matter?

I'm certainly not meaning to be rude here. I mean no harm at all. Neither am I trying to critize the use of those aforementioned (and other) already existing or even mythical species - I'm just curious. Since I know many people on this site have chosen to write about elves and orcs and dragons, I thought this forum could be an excellent way to englighten myself on this matter. : D


(As an end note: I hope I'm doing this right since I've never created a post before.)
 

Lawfire

Sage
I would think that the popularity of Dungeons and Dragons has something to do with it. Also many video games in the fantasy genre have their share of the "standard" fantasy elements. They're popular, people like them, so people write about them.
 

Alva

Scribe
That is a valid point and I'm sure both Tolkien and D&D have a lot to do with popularity of many of the beings I mentioned.

However, it is still not an answer to the question I have in mind. : ) I'm not actually interested in how came the typical fantasy beings being so typical, but what it is in them that keeps interesting people years after years? For example: Is it the longevity in elves that many writers find so fascinating or is it something completely else?

(I must admit that to me, most "mythical beasts" are just instant interest killers.)
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
They're popular among readers, as Lawfire said.

The works that form the foundation of the genre include them (Tolkien; Lord Dunsany). The works that came on the heels of Tolkien and was successful in the genre often include them. Many readers are interested in fantasy because they like elves or similar beings.

They certainly aren't necessary in fantasy writing, but so long as readers have a fondness for books about them, writers will keep writing stories that include them.
 
As the first "other," I'll note that I write a lot about demons--as beings that are inherently defined as "evil," they're useful for commenting on what "evil" is and isn't.

As for your general question, I think selling fantasy is a bit like trying to sell car magazines. There's something your most devoted and most interested readers will say they want (respectively, "something new and interesting" and "detailed information about cars.") There's also something that's easily sold to a large number of people, many of them not necessarily your devotees (respectively, "something comforting and familiar" and "something with a beautiful woman on the cover.") Enough people have figured this out that the latter predominates over the former. (You also see this principle at work in television comedies--shows people actually like often don't survive as many seasons as shows that a broad cross-section of society is willing to sit through and tolerate.)
 
As for your general question, I think selling fantasy is a bit like trying to sell car magazines. There's something your most devoted and most interested readers will say they want (respectively, "something new and interesting" and "detailed information about cars.") There's also something that's easily sold to a large number of people, many of them not necessarily your devotees (respectively, "something comforting and familiar" and "something with a beautiful woman on the cover.") Enough people have figured this out that the latter predominates over the former. (You also see this principle at work in television comedies--shows people actually like often don't survive as many seasons as shows that a broad cross-section of society is willing to sit through and tolerate.)

Superb example, Feo. And I agree, with races it's as much the familiarity, or at least "here's this elf's distinction from the Seventy Years Of Elves", as it is any more specific appeal they have.

--Quick mind-stretcher: if Tolkien had given his all to filling Middle Earth's side-corners with talking horses, or reluctant djinn, or anything else, what would the industry be like today? :showoff:

Still, elves are longer-lived, more beautiful, more magical, more nimble, more artistic, more witty... the only reason not to use them is if they seem too obvious.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I don't see any reason not to use elves or anything else if that's how you want to proceed. Makes no more sense to me than saying "man, there sure are a lot of stories about humans. I'm not reading those anymore." If the story interests me, and if the author does a good job and keep my attention, I'll read it even if the main characters can't swing a dog without hitting an elf.
 

Alva

Scribe
They're popular among readers, as Lawfire said.

The works that form the foundation of the genre include them (Tolkien; Lord Dunsany). The works that came on the heels of Tolkien and was successful in the genre often include them. Many readers are interested in fantasy because they like elves or similar beings.

They certainly aren't necessary in fantasy writing, but so long as readers have a fondness for books about them, writers will keep writing stories that include them.

Hmm. True. But I'm still looking for deeper and maybe even somewhat more "intellectual" reasons. Individual reasons. It would be a sad world if all those thousands of elve populations were only to exist due to their popularity among possible target audience(s). I'd like to know if there are some unique emotional/intellectual motivators that cause people to write about elves and orcs and other very typical and altogether familiar beings all over and over again.

I'm apparently having problems making myself sharp and clear here, but I'd like to hear more about possible individual reasons - other than marketing. Evidently people seem to consider a lot what kinds of species or races they include whilst they're world-building. They also pay more or less attention to the cultures and attitudes related to different kinds of species. Thus, I'm kind of interested in hearing, why one person chooses to write about (for instance) elves instead of creating a species of their own?

Is it just because it's easier? (I truly hope not...)
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I think humans are wired to view things as "us" versus "them" or "like" and "not like." Having a good and evil dichotomy of the sort represented by elves and orcs plays into that nicely.

People may also associate with the tragedy of elves. While long-lived, beautiful, and so on, they are often portrayed as a race in decline. It fits in with a nostalgic view of the past where the good ole' days were better but are inexorably fading away into history.
 

Alva

Scribe
As the first "other," I'll note that I write a lot about demons--as beings that are inherently defined as "evil," they're useful for commenting on what "evil" is and isn't.

As for your general question, I think selling fantasy is a bit like trying to sell car magazines. There's something your most devoted and most interested readers will say they want (respectively, "something new and interesting" and "detailed information about cars.") There's also something that's easily sold to a large number of people, many of them not necessarily your devotees (respectively, "something comforting and familiar" and "something with a beautiful woman on the cover.") Enough people have figured this out that the latter predominates over the former. (You also see this principle at work in television comedies--shows people actually like often don't survive as many seasons as shows that a broad cross-section of society is willing to sit through and tolerate.)

Well... I guess it is so then. Though I'm dissappointed. Just very, deeply deeply disappointed. I was hoping that people would answer me other than marketing. ": )

I actually study literature at university so I have an idea on how publishing world rolls. But it's just saddening that most people see fantasy as being "elves and orcs and dragons". There are just so many borders fantasy should be able to break and so many worlds and creatures yet to be presented! And then people re-create the Tolkien elves over and over again. Or that is how I feel every so often. : ) This is of course my personal opinion.

Along with mere marketing, I personally fear one of the reasons to be sheer lazyness. It's so much more easier to introduce the reader to an old, familiar species instead of a new and foreign one. But of course, I'm once again expressing my own thoughts. And I still hope someone would serve me an alternative, surprising point of view that would make me gasp in awe. I'm sure people have their own individual reasons too - other than money and lazyness.

(Plus, there are also a few nice takes on elves that have handled the subject - and species - in new, fresh ways. At least in those pieces of writing, the writer has clearly realized the weight of literal history the species in question carry.)
 

Saigonnus

Auror
They certainly aren't necessary in fantasy writing, but so long as readers have a fondness for books about them, writers will keep writing stories that include them.

I second this sentiment; though I am a little more picky anymore, the standard races that are included need to be interesting and at least a little different from the Tolkienesque or D&Dish manifestations that have been in fantasy literature for decades. I think having "stock" races with the traditional "feel" is fine (as long as the characters themselves are interesting), but I would probably put the book down if they aren't and don't diverge any from the classic portrayal of the given race.

Another thing I have noticed is how few novels have dwarves compared to elves... it seems like every second fantasy author has elves in their works but perhaps fewer than one-in-four or five have dwarves, not to mention gnomes or halflings.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
Elves are easy. There's a lot of work done already that include them and your average person will have a reasonable understanding of what they are. Same with dwarves and hobbits/halflings, orcs, vampires, werewolves and other common and popular races. It's like using a pre-assembled package instead of building something from scratch. By calling my fantasy race elves and giving them visual attributes that match the common reader's perception of what elves are I save myself a whole lot of work compared to coming up with something similar but with a different name.

I think you may be asking a slightly different question though. Could it be what you're wondering is "why do so many writers include a race with the attributes commonly associated with elves?"
I think it's something to do with playing to the dreams and ambitions of the readers. If you take a look at what characterises elves you'll find that they are in many ways slightly exaggerated and idealised humans. They're tall and beautiful, slender and graceful. They're intelligent and mysterious. They're powerful magicians, skilled archers, fearsome fighters and they live forever. All of these things are things that a human could easily dream of being.
I'm reasonably comfortable with who I am, but if I were to be reborn I wouldn't mind being a tall, slender, beautiful, immortal, hunter-magician adventurer. That would be kind of cool, at least in theory. It's something I can dream of. I wouldn't mind being an elf.

I think the role the elf fulfils is as the idealise human being; the cool, awesome being that we as readers are meant to look up to and aspire to be. They may come off as cheesy and they may be overdone to death, but I still think that in most stories they have that role to fill.
Another thought that just struck me is that powerful as they may be they will often need the help of the human (or hobbit) hero to help save them. The elves may have issues of some kind and despite their apparent superiority they will need the chose one to come to their rescue. This in turn will make the hero of the story seem even more heroic and awesome.
The hero is a "regular guy" but he's so awesome even the powerful elves need his help.

Food for thought?
 

Alva

Scribe
People may also associate with the tragedy of elves. While long-lived, beautiful, and so on, they are often portrayed as a race in decline. It fits in with a nostalgic view of the past where the good ole' days were better but are inexorably fading away into history.

This is a type of answer I was looking for.

And I see the point.

I just still wonder how come the novelty of this premise last so long! It amazes me how people don't grow tired of writing about elves or orcs - even after they have read dozens of other books about them(?) I myself can't even get the motivation to write a single short story about dragons (even though the representations of dragons tend to show far greater variety from story to story).

But well. I have my own creatures to concentrate on to.
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
I just still wonder how come the novelty of this premise last so long! It amazes me how people don't grow tired of writing about elves or orcs - even after they have read dozens of other books about them(?) I myself can't even get the motivation to write a single short story about dragons (even though the representations of dragons tend to show far greater variety from story to story).

Is it really novelty though? Isn't it the strength of the familiarity that's been argued as one of the main reasons for including elves and orcs in this thread?
A fantasy world may be different from the real world, but if it's different in roughly the same way as other fantasy worlds it has that welcoming comfort of something safe and familiar.

Another area where similar rules apply is music. When I was at university I used to work as a DJ at the local campus club. You would think that students at a university would be intellectual and openminded and that they would be interested in hearing new and exciting music, but that's not the case. They often said they would - people very much like the idea of experiencing new and interesting things, but when it actually happens they're not all that keen on it.
People would complain about hearing the same old songs all the time and about how the music was always the same, but once I actually played something new and interesting it usually wouldn't work - even when the very same songs later went on to become big chart-topping hits.
The tracks that went down the best were usually the current chart-toppers and the all time classics. "Summer of '69" will still fill a dance floor.
 

Alva

Scribe
I second this sentiment; though I am a little more picky anymore, the standard races that are included need to be interesting and at least a little different from the Tolkienesque or D&Dish manifestations that have been in fantasy literature for decades. I think having "stock" races with the traditional "feel" is fine (as long as the characters themselves are interesting), but I would probably put the book down if they aren't and don't diverge any from the classic portrayal of the given race.

I'm having the same problem, though I've grown up to be extremely picky. I'm quite character orientated, so too typical or - at worst - clichée presentations of elves (for instance) are instant interest killers to me. Absolutely instant. Thus, I tend to read only low fantasy and avoid everything that even mentions "elves" or "dragons". It took me years to gather enough courage (and motivation) to familiarize myself with the writings of Robin Hobb. It's such a shame, her books are lovely. : ) Luckily one of my friends forced me to try Assassin's Apprentice.

I wish there would be more variety in the stylistic choices on the fantasy fiction arena. I'd love to have even more writers like Susanna Clarke (Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell)Philip Pullman (His Dark Materials -trilogy) and Scott Lynch (Gentlemen Bastards -series). I like philosophical fantasy. And "academic" fantasy, too.
 

Spider

Sage
I honestly can't say I'm writing about elves and orcs in my WIP, but I'm going to put myself in those shoes for the moment. About a year ago, I had a "brilliant" idea to create all these new races rather than sticking to the "overused" elves, orcs, and such. I asked my friend what she thought of it, and she said that she probably wouldn't read it if it was too out of the ordinary.

That being said, I did tame down my ideas a lot compared to what they started out to be. Creating species of your own is a risk because you don't know if it will work for the reader or your own WIP for that matter. Too many new ideas stuffed into one package could be difficult to handle. There's nothing wrong with writing about these stock races because they're easier. As a beginning writer, I would write about them because I could use the works of others as a reference to guide me in writing my own.

I suppose I might also use them because so many of these races are either good/light or bad/dark. It's something that is not so easily defined in reality, and through this approach, the characters can be simplified and easily distinguished as protagonists or antagonists. Of course, some people don't write about them for the same reason. I also acknowledge that authors have put their own spin on the races, making them appear more like "gray" characters. On the other hand, there's some sort of a unity that is created when readers (and the writer) can pinpoint the races they want to root for as opposed to the races they want to vent their anger on.
 

Lord Ben

Minstrel
Generally when I'm looking for a book to read and have to choose between an "epic tale of a battle between Elf and Orc" or "epic tale of a battle between Flariss and Thalgir" I'm going to pick the one that makes sense.

The second, to me, just looks like a book that uses a story an excuse for the writer to tell us about some world and races he drew up (and probably has characters named Eath'ma Goria'la'thrim at their most pronounceable, and each syllable means something in their naming convention which he or she will explain) and the first one I get a decent idea of what kind of story it is.
 

Alva

Scribe
Is it really novelty though?

That is exactly the thing I'm wondering. But maybe not everybody needs to have the novelty element to motivate them to write. I do, though. Plus, creating a species of ones own grants much more freedom to roam.

Another area where similar rules apply is music. When I was at university I used to work as a DJ at the local campus club. You would think that students at a university would be intellectual and openminded and that they would be interested in hearing new and exciting music, but that's not the case. They often said they would - people very much like the idea of experiencing new and interesting things, but when it actually happens they're not all that keen on it.

That is a good example. I must admit that I can somewhat relate to need for familiarity when it comes to music. Though I listen to all kinds of genres and artists, there are also moments when I certainly don't need the techno rhythms or any contemporary classical "noise". (And I play an accordeon, so contemporary classical music is familiar to me first hand. I just can't take it most of the time. ": )

Still, you're example is actually answering the question "Why people read traditional high fantasy stories?" not exactly "Why do people write classical high fantasy?". Marketing, though, is of course one reason, and I partly understand that many (especially publishing writers) would like to have an easily predictable, large-sized target audience.

But still, I'd like to turn the music example around a bit and ask: "How did you feel about playing the same music night after night?" Especially when part of your audience was displeased although you tried your very best to serve good music and suit everyone's tastes. The problem - even with target marketing - seems to be that you can't please everybody. Thus I'm wondering, that surely there must be also some inner motivator for a writer to write so called "generic" fantasy. At least I don't count money as inner motivator. Money is only a tool, an easy external goal, whereas writing in itself can (and should?) have intrinsic value.
 

Penpilot

Staff
Article Team
I just still wonder how come the novelty of this premise last so long! It amazes me how people don't grow tired of writing about elves or orcs - even after they have read dozens of other books about them(?) I myself can't even get the motivation to write a single short story about dragons (even though the representations of dragons tend to show far greater variety from story to story).

Well if it's lasted so long then it's no longer a novelty is it. Part of it has to do IMHO with the foundation of the genre. And another is people, as much as they might deny it, like the familiar. The gravitate to the same thing but only different, if that makes any sense. It's like how many versions of The Hero's Journey or Star-Crossed Lover can be told before people become bored? That number hasn't been reached yet since the beginning of story telling.

Also stories with traditional elements only make up part of Fantasy. There are tons on novels that have little or none of those elements. One of the biggest hits recently, Game of Thrones, only has dragons, but no fantasy folk except in legend, the Children of the Forest.

Using creatures from human myth allows the author an easy in. All you have to do mention an elf there will be a easy understanding for the general reader on how it looks and acts. It gives them sound footing for the species even if you break the tropes. If you create a creature called a lets say Spelf, you have to go about explaining and describing exactly what that is, and the reader is left on less sure footing when they first encounter the species.

Also if a person is going to create an species that walks like an elf and talks like an elf, why call it something else just to be different?
 
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