HIJACKED by Ganondorf - magic vs. technology

Discussion in 'World Building' started by Philster401, Mar 31, 2015.

  1. Philster401

    Philster401 Scribal Lord

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    Questions
    1) Do you think magic that all could use would slow down even halt technological advancement

    2)Magic vs technology who would win? let me expand say modern or maybe ten years into the future technology compared to earth. While the magical society has less people but is very adept with elemental magics.

    3) Can magic advanced society and technology advanced society work together well?
    3.5) If yes what are problems each would have with each other?

    4) If you found out one day that magic was real and there was a whole society from a different world who sent representatives to earth to give a warning of an impending war from a society who had advanced in technology and magic equally and an alliance between earth and the representatives home world waa the only way to survive.

    5) Am I making this to complicated?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 1, 2015
  2. X Equestris

    X Equestris Scribal Lord

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    It might halt technological advancement in certain fields. If you have healing magic that can do the things modern medicine can do, you might never need to develop more mundane medicine to the level that we have.
     
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  3. Brian Scott Allen

    Brian Scott Allen Dark Lord

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    1) presupposes that any magic is better than any magic/technology blend. So I wouldn't say it would halt development just completely alter its path. Although I suppose this answer also depends on what you mean by technology.

    2) In this scenario I have to ask a few questions are nukes and other banned by treaty weapons usable? If it came to an all out war of this type of scenario I would say tech would win hands down because nukes, fighter planes, drones, and logistics.

    3) This is a question that deals more with cultures than actual magic and tech problems. They should work fine, depending on certain mechanics of the magic and the cultures. Humans are adaptable like that. I honestly don't see problems unless the magic required killing each other to access it.

    4) I would make the alliance, assuming what they're saying is true. But I am not a world leader so I can't really make that choice.

    5) I would say this isn't complex enough. There are a lot of little nuances to go into depending on how the magic works in relation to the technology and what you mean by technology.
     
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  4. WooHooMan

    WooHooMan Scribal Lord

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    Doesn't all this depend on how magic works in the specific setting?

    Generally, I think people have a natural tendency to use all resources available to them so if there is magic and technology (as two separate things) in a setting, people would use both.
     
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  5. Antaus

    Antaus Master

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    1) Do you think magic that all could use would slow down even halt technological advancement?

    You really have to stop and ask yourself that question in regards to your world setting and how people feel about magic. Is magic universally accepted? Are there some who embrace it and some who reject it? You could even end up with magic or technology cults and religions depending on how things turn out. Then you have to stop and ask yourself how magic and technology co-existing would affect the development of both. Take Final Fantasy VI for example which mixed technology and magic to the point they developed Magitech, basically technology fueled by magic.

    2) Magic vs technology who would win? Let me expand, say modern or maybe ten years into the future technology compared to Earth. While the magical society has less people but is very adept with elemental magics.

    This is a very difficult subject to approach because if the technology is advanced enough, in many ways it could accomplish some of the same feats as magic. Both have different approaches to the manipulation of the world around them, both have pros and cons to consider. I won't go into semantics and this could vary wildly depending on story setting, just some generic examples.

    Magic

    Pros: You can never really disarm a magic user. Not affected by EMPs.
    Cons: Takes years to master the basics. Excessive use generally wears a person out if they're the power source.

    Technology

    Pros: Doesn't takes years to master, can be used quickly. With a stable power source the user isn't drained.
    Cons: EMP usually = fried.

    3) Can magic advanced societies and technology advanced societies work together well?

    Yes they can. If the story is set right you could have them living right next door to each other. Highly advanced technology and magic are not as different as most people think they are. Often times the end result is the same, it's the application that differs. I'll give you some examples that apply to magic and technology both.

    They can be controlled by other people with proper knowledge, they can be manipulated to do things they weren't originally meant to. They can backfire and injure/kill someone. They can be used for attack/defense/healing/travel and more. If you stop and think about it, just about anything magic can do, so can technology, and vice versa.

    Someone might say something like magic can open portals to other worlds. In such a case I would site the television show Stargate SG-1. Now I realise it's a fictional television program, but if you think about it, much of what happened in SG-1 was based on science fact, mixed with a little Hollywood hocus pocus of course. However the fact remains that what happened in SG-1 actually is within the realm of theoretical scientific possibility. If sufficiently advanced technology can accomplish anything magic can.

    3.5) If yes, what are problems each would have with each other?

    Some of the most common problems would be suspicion, fear, and mistrust, coming from each misunderstanding one another. In the past it has been and still is human nature to hate and fear what they don't understand.

    4) If you found out one day that magic was real and there was a whole society from a different world who sent representatives to earth to give a warning of an impending war from a society who had advanced in technology and magic equally and an alliance between earth and the representatives home world was the only way to survive.

    In cases of survival and facing a mutual threat it's quite common for people, even hated enemies, to put aside their differences and work toward mutual survival.

    5) Am I making this to complicated?

    No
     
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  6. Philster401

    Philster401 Scribal Lord

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    Thank you so much for commenting everyone. Especially Antaus I love SG and it is almost impossible to find any one who watches SG.
     
  7. Antaus

    Antaus Master

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    I've watched all the seasons :biggrin:
     
  8. Philster401

    Philster401 Scribal Lord

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    Amazing I have seen a fair few and own the first season but I have always loved the show and the concepts brought up on the show.
     
  9. Saigonnus

    Saigonnus Dark Lord

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    I agree with many above. I think it would certainly stall, slow or even render certain technologies pointless. Communication for example. If one could have a magic mirror hanging on the wall and communicate with someone (or groups of people) anywhere in the world, that kind of limits what technology would be used for.

    I have a premise for a fantasy world that evolved to the point of "modern" times. In this story concept, some of the modern ideas are there; like global communication, transportation and industry, but if you are creative enough, you can have anything that we recognize as "technological" be magical instead.

    I think it would depend on the technologies available to the technological society vs. the abilities of the magic-using society. If the techies have nukes (like the above example) and the magicians don't have the capability of combining their magic to make a defensive shield large enough to protect their city from the blast, or somehow eliminate it before it detonates, then I would say the techies would win if it came down to a scrap.

    It is also subjective to how combat works in this world of yours and what constitutes victory. During the American Revolution for example, the British at one point controlled nearly all of the cities in the U.S. and yet, due to guerilla warfare and economic stresses caused by sheer distance, they ultimately won the war anyway. If said magical society doesn't really have a centralized society, in essence their own cities, they would eliminate (or at least greatly lower) the possibility of them using those sorts of technologies against them.

    Another thing to consider in the realm of weaponry is whether or not magic is incorporated in any way with the way weapons function. If you have a rifle that shoots miniature fireballs or micro meteors instead of bullets, then magicians would have the upper hand in most engagements since they could simply render the weapons useless with a wave of their hand.

    I think the biggest issue I can presently think of of meshing a tech society with a magical one is the arguments over the best way to get things done or dealing with the extremists that would undoubtedly pop up on either side; believing thier side is inherently better; as with religious extremists here on Earth. Also, you would likely also have stiffer competition in the area of trade, transportation, commerce and industry.

    Company A offers a magical charm that protects the wearer from small arms fire... While Company B Offers full body armor, much like we know now and use for military soldiers. In this instance, whether one is better is irrelevant, the buyer will buy what they can afford. I think it would actually open up the markets a bit more than we generally see in the modern world.

    I think this question would be dependant on the proof offered by said alien government. Coming to Earth and just telling us probably wouldn't have much of a reaction without some sort of physical, digital or existential proof being given. With it, perhaps the governments of the world would still be doubtful and others would try to take advantage of the situation in some way; try to capitalize on the coming conflict. I would see the people of the Earth trying to "get" magical abilities from the magical race, maybe analyze them technologically and create a bastardized psuedo-technology.

    Nope, the issue; when you get down to it, is fairly complex. I think you need to have the three cultures involved fleshed out including strengths and weaknesses compared the other two. That will give you the manner in which this third culture is dealt with at the end.
     
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  10. Hainted

    Hainted Mystagogue

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    It all depends on the magic. How difficult is it? Can it be mass produced? Using Saigonnus' magic mirror idea for example. To have this you would need factories that produced magic mirrors. Ok, so does each employee make a mirror by themselves?(and if it's that cheap and easy why doesn't everyone make their own mirror?) Is it a multistep process? Are their downsides to magic mirror production?(Am I going to get Glimmerlung from breathing the fumes for example.) Can the enchantment process be refined or altered so you have different mirror manufacturers? What powers the mirrors?

    But a magic society would alter the advancement of technology. In my world they have Golems, so the concept of mass production assembly lines came about centuries before it did in our world.
     
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  11. The Goblin

    The Goblin Banned

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    (...the goblin shall answer for you these questions two...)
    (...he who holds the most powerful trinket would win, though the goblin suspects magic has the advantage; but then, a goblin knows that the internet is crawling with livewriting demons...)

    (...a highly technological device needs a power source, such as the element which flows through the fingertips of a lightning mage...)




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  12. Devor

    Devor Fiery Keeper of the Hat Moderator

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    I wasn't going to engage this, but . . . . just what are you talking about?
     
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  13. wordwalker

    wordwalker Dark Lord

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    For magic vs tech, here's one way it's often compared:

    Technology is usually faster, once it's been built, so it's better at concentrating military power on one spot in a hurry and winning there. Bullets cut wizards apart before they can raise their staffs, cars and planes zip troops around where griffons are still trying to load them up, radios (and internets!!!!) link towns and leaders much more thoroughly than a handful of palantir.

    Plus, the whole point of tech is that you can mass-produce it and give it to everyone who can understand it-- cost and materials permitting, anyway. Magic's often limited by "gifts," extensive training, or rare components, so there's much less magic at work away from the major wizards themselves.

    Magic tends to ignore the limits of tech: no problems with EMPs, no need for big factories to build your spells or keep an infrastructure in place. Plus, it's often better at generating sabotage or "bypass" effects by working with more fundamental forces: a technological bug or set of planted charges can't be as sneaky as a shapeshifter or a Rock To Mud spell, and tech can't usually protect itself from those-- it can just shoot back.

    The real question is, what kind of magic (and what level of tech) are you comparing? It's easy to say one side has modern tanks (or WWII tanks) and the other has dragons, but are these "dragons" tougher or weaker than those tanks? weaker but faster? Do the mages have more or fewer dragons-- and are they as easy to replace compared to the industries that just keep cranking out more tanks (until enough factories get blown up)? Which ways is one stronger than another, at which times, and which can do it more often (usually tech) or with more resistance to war's disruption (magic?).

    Maybe the final key is that because the two are so different from each other, whichever one doesn't see the other coming loses.
     
  14. The Goblin

    The Goblin Banned

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    (...the goblin knows what he is talking about even if others do not...)



    (Even the moblins don't understand me. Do you, ladies?)
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  15. Brian Scott Allen

    Brian Scott Allen Dark Lord

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    ^ I...I don't know what's going on anymore.
     
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  16. The Goblin

    The Goblin Banned

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    (...he of three names is perplexed, but he of one name is not...)




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  17. Philster401

    Philster401 Scribal Lord

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    Actually I think I understand what Goblin is saying.
    Is that which ever one I see as stronger is the one that will be stronger and that in his opinion magic is stronger.

    Clarification
    The technology is ten years in the future.
    The Magic society is split into eleven kingdoms wind, water, earth, fire, lightning, ice, dark, light, nature, chaos, and the last one isn't really a magic but they create the best weapons and armor, have the biggest library in the society, are basically protectors of the society, and have found ways to enhance magic and create protection from it.

    Definitions
    Technology needs materials and energy in order to function. Ex. Train needs coal, electricity, or nuclear power to run.
    Magic Needs to be taught, requires focus-training , but does not require an outside force of energy, and depends on users adeptness to magic on how they can use it.
    Early on magicians require a few years of practice and start their training by focusing it on a weapon. Ex. flaming sword. Then they might be able to use it by focusing on making a flame in their hand than being able to throw it. Then after that if they are luck can focus on any place and effect it like starting a fire in a tree a few meters away and depending on the users skill how far away you can focus and have it light a flame.

    And thank you everyone!
     
  18. The Goblin

    The Goblin Banned

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    (...the goblin did not say that at all, the goblin was simply saying that in a world of magic and of technology, one cannot exist without the other, for is technology not a form of lightning magic...)



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    Uh, no, it isn't.)
    (WTF) (I thought The Philster totally nailed it.)
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  19. WooHooMan

    WooHooMan Scribal Lord

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    My theory is that The Goblin is some kind of sentient webcomic - hence the Zelda guys. What he says is what we in the webcomic biz call "alt text". I don't get the ellipses or the speaking in third person but, y'know, I've only dealt with sentient comics on like two other occasions so I'm no expert.

    Anyways, the definition of technology is "the collection of techniques, methods or processes used in the production of goods or services or in the accomplishment of objectives"
    By this definition, magic in fiction usually is technology. Even if you simplify technology to mean objects, you could argue things like wands or amulets are technology.

    I'm actually very curious as to where the whole magic-tech schism stereotype comes from. Anyone have any ideas?
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2015
  20. Philster401

    Philster401 Scribal Lord

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    I would have to say I don't think technology is lightning magic at least not in my definition but lightning magic could be used to fuel technology though.
     

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