Sex!

[Michael K. Eidson]

I actually disagree with the concept of "only if it's important to the story." The tone and vibe of the novel is really what matters:

-if your readers are already immersed in a gritty tale, this means they are more open to reading detailed love scenes (less room for being offended).
-love scenes by their very nature are designed to show character growth and vulnerability. It binds characters, brings them closer emotionally. Meaning, it's a positive way of developing strengths etc.

So I'm looking for advice on how you would deal with this in your writing, thanks in advance!

I totally agree with Chessie2 that the tone and vibe of the novel is really what matters. Though you say you're not writing erotica, if the tale is gritty in other ways, maybe you're okay with including detailed love scenes for the sake of realism. If the tale is not gritty in any way, it's probably not a wise decision to throw explicit sex scenes in the middle of it. If you're somewhere in the middle, maybe you can include some sex scenes with only the explicit details that are important to the story, which is not to say they are important necessarily to the plot, but may be character building or world building or whatever.

 

[FifthView]

...And I'm with DotA in thinking that "important to the story" is different than "important to the plot."

The tone is important to the story but maybe not to the plot, heh. Same with character development and showing character interactions and relationships.

But the problem with saying "it should be important to the story" is that pretty much everything is important to the story, or should be. I.e., what constitutes "the story" might be highly subjective for both writer and reader, but the whole set of features—tone, characters, themes, setting/world, and so forth—combine to create "the story."

However, the thing "important to the story" accomplishes is that, for me personally, I can say it without intending to mean that everything added to a tale must "serve the plot." And, that's how I use the phrase. But I think sometimes my use triggers the idea "serve the plot" even when that's not at all what I intended.

[Edit: FWIW, I began writing the above before Michael's comment. I think a lot of us might be on the same general page but some of this terminology, i.e., the semantics, isn't settled, heh.]

 

[Heliotrope]

[Edit: FWIW, I began writing the above before Michael's comment. I think a lot of us might be on the same general page but some of this terminology, i.e., the semantics, isn't settled, heh.]

I think this is it too. IMO the whole entire package tied up with paper and bow is the "story"... plot, characters, tone, voice, word choice, style, etc etc etc.... = story.

 

[FifthView]

I think this is it too. IMO the whole entire package tied up with paper and bow is the "story"... plot, characters, tone, voice, word choice, style, etc etc etc.... = story.

I've also thought that sometimes I should revise the comment and say "important to the reader's experience of the story that you want the reader to have," but that's awfully long and clunky and a bit vague/abstract.

This would, however, bring in the important factor of how the reader experiences the unfolding of the tale.

So even if the novel is gritty, perhaps you as author don't particularly want the reader to read through a long, explicit sex scene. You want the focus to be on other events or aspects of the tale. Or you want the relationship or characters' feelings about the sex to remain a little uncertain, mysterious, for reader and the characters involved—in which case, you fade to black but have a sequel in which one or both characters mull over that event. Or, maybe you do want that kind of scene, because you think this will present the tale as you intend for it to be experienced.

Even a tale that is largely "not gritty" might benefit from an extended sex scene, albeit one that isn't quite as explicit but more....metaphorical? More keyed into the emotions but with less explicit detail of what is happening?

That said, none of this excludes the possibility that a sex scene can be important to the plot.

Heh. So many ways to go about it.

 

[Annoyingkid]

So I'm thinking "what if this would be published and friends and family actually read it". That'd be awkward.

Let your sense of shame be your guide. If you get embarrassed by it, it's a sign you've gone too far.
Also get it proofread alot. It's easy to be unintentionally funny or cringeworthy here, and you're unlikely to be able to see it for yourself.

 

[Chessie2]

I don't understand why these sorts of questions constantly evolve into detailed explanations of what one thing should be vs another when it really comes down to the individual author's definition of what's important. It adds confusion to the mix. I get so frustrated trying to help others when everythig gets so muddied wih detail. I should just stop answering questions on here.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Let your sense of shame be your guide. If you get embarrassed by it, it's a sign you've gone too far.

I'm inclined to disagree. I try not to let my feelings about what would offend people I know or make me self-conscious guide what I write. Be brave in writing. Write what the story demands, not what you're afraid others would judge you for if they saw.

But, if you really don't want to, not just out of fear of being judged but in your own feelings, then don't. You're the god of your world.

 

[Annoyingkid]

I'm inclined to disagree. I try not to let my feelings about what would offend people I know or make me self-conscious guide what I write. Be brave in writing. Write what the story demands, not what you're afraid others would judge you for if they saw.

But, if you really don't want to, not just out of fear of being judged but in your own feelings, then don't. You're the god of your world.

It's not about being judged. It's about the fact what affects the writer a certain way typically affects the reader the same way.
ie, If it bores you to write it, it will likely bore others to read it.
If it embarrasses you to write it, it will likely embarrass others to read it.
And so on.

 

[Chessie2]

It's not about being judged. It's about the fact what affects the writer a certain way typically affects the reader the same way.
ie, If it bores you to write it, it will likely bore others to read it.
If it embarrasses you to write it, it will likely embarrass others to read it.
And so on.

Why is sex being treated like it's a bad shameful thing?

 

[Annoyingkid]

Why is sex being treated like it's a bad shameful thing?

Sex is a fundamentally private act that the writer is openly sharing with the world. If it's not written with sensitivity and skill, there's big potential for cringe,

 

[Chessie2]

I've also thought that sometimes I should revise the comment and say "important to the reader's experience of the story that you want the reader to have," but that's awfully long and clunky and a bit vague/abstract.

This would, however, bring in the important factor of how the reader experiences the unfolding of the tale.

So even if the novel is gritty, perhaps you as author don't particularly want the reader to read through a long, explicit sex scene. You want the focus to be on other events or aspects of the tale. Or you want the relationship or characters' feelings about the sex to remain a little uncertain, mysterious, for reader and the characters involved—in which case, you fade to black but have a sequel in which one or both characters mull over that event. Or, maybe you do want that kind of scene, because you think this will present the tale as you intend for it to be experienced.

Even a tale that is largely "not gritty" might benefit from an extended sex scene, albeit one that isn't quite as explicit but more....metaphorical? More keyed into the emotions but with less explicit detail of what is happening?

That said, none of this excludes the possibility that a sex scene can be important to the plot.

Heh. So many ways to go about it.

I disagree all the way. Tone is related to the subgenre if a story. A dark epic fantasy will more than likely do just fine with explicit sex (GOT or Best Served Cold) compared to a historical fantasy with a little romance and a cleaner focus.

Sex is a fundamentally private act that the writer is openly sharing with the world. If it's not written with sensitivity and skill, there's big potential for cringe,

Gotcha. Yeah this is true.

Maybe it's because I write a lot of sex scenes that I'm...I guess...confused as to why they're seen as special scenes. Sex scenes are love scenes and emotions are what matters, not the explicitness of the act. The focus should be on emotions. It's why I'm like whaa?? when some here have said "Only if it's important to the story". Emotions are important to any story (and some here who have said in other threads they don't write sex scenes or romantic scenes, no offense but how would you recognize the importance or value of them if you don't include them in your own fiction?).

 

[Annoyingkid]

It has value. For instance it allows a writer to bring up two lagging supporting characters in one move.

 

[Michael K. Eidson]

I'd only include a sex scene if it's important to the story in the same way I'd only include a clown scene if it was important to the story. I could write a lengthy clown scene and include it in my WIP, but it would be a detraction, so why would I include it? My story has nothing to do with clowns. My story does have something to do with sex, so I include sex scenes. But I wouldn't include a sex scene just to include one. I don't understand the resistance to the desire to include something in your story only if it is of some importance to the story being told. If it's not important in some way, why is it there? I'd personally cut it during editing if it's not in some way important.

 

[Annoyingkid]

so why would I include it?

To turn on the reader?

 

[FifthView]

I disagree all the way. Tone is related to the subgenre if a story. A dark epic fantasy will more than likely do just fine with explicit sex (GOT or Best Served Cold) compared to a historical fantasy with a little romance and a cleaner focus.

I simply don't understand how your comment addresses what I wrote?

My general impression is that you are saying the only important consideration is whether you are writing one tone vs another, and that one always allows the inclusion of an explicit sex scene and the other always requires a less explicit treatment of whatever sex appears in it.

For me, that's a bit too much absolutism. I do think that if you as author decide your story is going to be a "cleaner" historical romance, then, circularly, it's got to be cleaner. And if you as author decide your extremely gritty dark epic fantasy is going to have no holds barred, then you can include explicit sex—but I don't think it follows that just because you can, you should.

But all of that is pretty much what I said in the comment you quoted and elsewhere. It's up to the author to decide the kind of story she is going to tell. Decide it's going to be a relatively clean historical romance and stick to that—if that's what you want—or decide it's going to be a dark epic fantasy with lots of grit and do or don't include an explicit sex scene—if that's what you want for the tale.

I don't think that the dichotomy needs to be absolute for every example of a gritty, dark epic fantasy or a historical fantasy with a generally cleaner focus. I do think that a sudden, unexpected explicit sex scene in an otherwise generally clean historical romance might catch a reader off guard; but then again, maybe for a particular tale you'd want to catch the reader off guard. So I think being careful about this would be important.

I also think that from a marketing standpoint, if your target audience is the sort that likes the clean historical romance, you should probably stick with keeping it relatively clean. If your target audience is the sort looking for erotica or porn, you have to please them. But you as author get to decide what your target audience is or even whether to write for one of those niches, so it's still up to you.

 

[Chessie2]

I never said always.

As a generalism, tone of story defines what can be put in it. Readers should know what to expect when they first go in. This starts at the beginning with cover, blurb, title, etc. So if you start clean then the reader expects clean. If you start dark the reader expects dark.

About should or always, I never said that. And it's these detailed running arounds of language when we converse on here that become exhausting. Sometimes I long for these answers to OP threads to be simplistic. Why? Because it gives people the freedom to figure things out for themselves without getting confused. Many of these conversations turn into eye rolling hair splitting (for me). I'm going to exit now.

 

[FifthView]

I never said always.

As a generalism, tone of story defines what can be put in it. Readers should know what to expect when they first go in. This starts at the beginning with cover, blurb, title, etc. So if you start clean then the reader expects clean. If you start dark the reader expects dark.

About should or always, I never said that. And it's these detailed running arounds of language when we converse on here that become exhausting. Sometimes I long for these answers to OP threads to be simplistic. Why? Because it gives people the freedom to figure things out for themselves without getting confused. Many of these conversations turn into eye rolling hair splitting (for me). I'm going to exit now.

Sometimes these threads are confusing for me when someone posts that they disagree entirely with me but are giving opinions that pretty much match everything I've written in the discussion. [Was looking for a head-scratch emoji but couldn't find it.]

 

[Thoras]

Let your sense of shame be your guide. If you get embarrassed by it, it's a sign you've gone too far.
Also get it proofread alot. It's easy to be unintentionally funny or cringeworthy here, and you're unlikely to be able to see it for yourself.

Well I'm not sure that is a good rule to follow. It's not that I'd be ashamed of what I wrote to the general population, just family and close friends. I mean we all know when reading a book that no matter how immersive it is, in the end it is all a mix of imagination and experiences of that one author himself/herself. Meaning it is actually quite personal and private, and I don't usually share much of myself to others, not even family and friends. It is the exposing part that is scary to me.

 

[Michael K. Eidson]

And it's these detailed running arounds of language when we converse on here that become exhausting.

I agree with the sentiment. But we have to remember that this is a discussion forum, not a Q&A app. Disagreements and misunderstandings come with the territory. We all throw out our opinions, and the OP makes of the mess what he or she will.

Also, it's not just the OP that can benefit from what any of us have to say. Every post I read on Mystic Scribes gives me another way of thinking about writing. I welcome other viewpoints. I don't always understand where the other person is coming from at the time, but later down the road, I might have a moment of clarity or inspiration due to something I've read here. Keep in mind too that some people read without commenting, and they might find helpful advice among any of our posts.

To turn on the reader?

Then it has purpose, and that's where I would say it has importance to the story. If you can come up with a reason for it to be included, then include it. If there is no reason, then cut it.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Well I'm not sure that is a good rule to follow. It's not that I'd be ashamed of what I wrote to the general population, just family and close friends. I mean we all know when reading a book that no matter how immersive it is, in the end it is all a mix of imagination and experiences of that one author himself/herself. Meaning it is actually quite personal and private, and I don't usually share much of myself to others, not even family and friends. It is the exposing part that is scary to me.

I understand that feeling too well.