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GoT Season 4 [NO SPOILERS, PLEASE]

Discussion in 'Film & Television' started by Legendary Sidekick, Apr 7, 2014.

  1. T.Allen.Smith

    T.Allen.Smith Staff Moderator

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    His castration plays a big role in why he acts as he does. It was hinted at & has nothing to do with the normal absence of sexual desire.
     
  2. Legendary Sidekick

    Legendary Sidekick The HAM'ster Moderator

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    Red Viper vs. The Mountain

    I hated to see how that battle went, and loved it at the same time!
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2014
  3. SM-Dreamer

    SM-Dreamer Troubadour

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    While watching, my wife asked why he wasn't fighting the Mountain with a sword. I had to pause the show to stare at her.
     
  4. monyo

    monyo Scribe

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    ^Exact same sentiment. One of my favorite parts of the books, and one of my favorite characters. It's like getting wounded all over again.

    It works on another level, too. I did martial arts for a long time, probably a half dozen styles over the same number of years. Skill definitely beats even extreme differences of size and strength, but it takes a lot of skill to make up for a much smaller size and strength disadvantage. All you have to do is mess up for a second and that's the end of it. I can think of exceptions to that rule, too, but it brings a level of realism and meaning to the scene that I kind of appreciate.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2014
  5. Legendary Sidekick

    Legendary Sidekick The HAM'ster Moderator

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    I remember taking karate when I was around 20. There were some classmates who could beat me with skill, but one guy decided to skillfully grab my leg. Without doing anything dangerous, I demonstrated my advantage in grappling by rolling back, kicking my leg upward, then using my arms to lift him just before his head hit the floor.

    The sensei might have been very PO'd at me, but he did notice my counter was in control and... well, it worked.

    Whether strength or skill, one successful grapple can end a fight. I'm not that big or that skillful, so I'd have my share of opponents whose grips I'd prefer to avoid completely.


    I loved Tyrion's expression when the Viper wouldn't stop pestering the wounded Mountain. That was probably my expression when I read that scene. Just kill him, dammit!

    My poor wife. She wanted me to tell her the winner up-front, but I refused to. I think of all the one-season characters, Oberon is my favorite. (I'll understand if most say he's second to Ned Stark.)
     
  6. SM-Dreamer

    SM-Dreamer Troubadour

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    I did really enjoy watching Oberyn throughout the season. But as soon as he started fighting the Mountain, well. As I reminded my wife, the Mountain has that name for a REASON, and he's using a bloody 2 hander with 1 hand! I don't care how skilled you are, that is someone I want to be within reach of! As has been mentioned, one grip, one misstep...

    And he did misstep, sadly. He got arrogant. He decided that Oh, I have the Mountain down, I don't have to worry about him.

    I had trouble watching because every video game monster-sense was screaming "get back, get back, make sure he's dead!!!"
     
  7. Gryphos

    Gryphos Auror

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    I'm not gonna lie, I'm kinda mad. Not like a Red Wedding kind of "Gosh darnit that sucks", more I'm physically angry with GRRM. Why on earth did Oberyn have to die? What purpose did it serve for the story? He was a great character with so much potential but nope, headsplosion. And with no reason as far as I can see.
     
  8. monyo

    monyo Scribe

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    One minor thing I might point out, is that while one successful grapple can definitely end a fight, I think grappling could have easily gone in Oberyn's favor. The style I did the longest and loved the most was brazilian jiujitsu, and that's basically 90% ground grappling. One of the most memorable moments was getting tapped out about 30 times in a 5 minute match by a guy who was about half my size, and was only using one arm because the other one was broken. I'd just started and he'd been doing it for years. That kind of thing wasn't an unusual occurrence.

    The trick with fighting someone like the Mountain is not to stay in that dangerous range where they can do the most damage (in this case, the radius where he can swing his sword). Oberyn does it by using a spear and staying outside, but he could have just as easily closed the distance after the Mountain missed a swing, gotten a takedown and finished him that way. Even after falling down, some good ground defense could have saved him - if nothing else the Mountain was probably giving him an armbar opportunity when he held him up by the throat to punch his teeth out. See for instance how Genki Sudo beat Butterbean (short version, full fight), the famous Noguiera vs. Bob Sapp fight (highlights). Though grappling in armor might change the game a bit - Butterbean and Sapp weren't punching with armor plated knuckles - and BJJ or Judo in Westeros probably wouldn't really fit with the whole medieval Europe style setting. About the closest I remember seeing to it was Brienne's double leg takedown and getting to "mount" when she beat Loras.

    If anything I'd think grappling would tend to be more reliable. They say that everyone has a "puncher's chance," meaning even if you're a lot less skilled, if you're strong and fast you might get lucky and land a good blow, knocking the opponent out. But you're basically never going to beat someone who's really well trained in grappling if you don't know anything about it. It's just too complicated, thousands of techniques and all kinds of nuances, where as it's really hard to keep bobbing and slipping punches without eventually messing up. I've never done any sword fighting stuff, but I've heard it's much the same - there used to be a lot of incentive not to actually engage unless you were fairly sure you could win, because with knives and swords you're even more likely to get a major, major injury if your timing or distances is off by even a little.
     
  9. kayd_mon

    kayd_mon Sage

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    @Gryphos

    It's similar to Ned's demise. It's shocking, it makes you angry and your semse of justice is screaming, but it serves to propel the story. If he did win, like we all wanted, what happens next? I think the storytelling options are more interesting the way it panned out.

    And... Well just let's watch and see what happens!

    Ok, off to the spoiler thread.
     
  10. Gryphos

    Gryphos Auror

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    It makes sense from a story standpoint for Tyrion's champion to lose, yes. But to waste a great character such as Oberyn I just can't agree with. From the start he's presented as a kind of dark horse, determined to get revenge on the entire Lannister House. It's a setup for a huge arc of him gradually bringing down the Lannisters. But to have him fall dead at the first hurdle is just so unfulfilling.
     
  11. kayd_mon

    kayd_mon Sage

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    Well yeah, I get that. I really liked him in the book, and I was pretty upset at the end of this scene. In the show, it's almost like you feel it worse, since he has such a short time before the battle. And once in the battle, he's just so fun to watch!
     
  12. Sir Kieran

    Sir Kieran Scribe

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    Pedro Pascal did a fantastic job as Oberyn Martell - he played the part exactly as I pictured it when I read the books. The accent was dead on, he uses the same sass and passion, and I thought the trial by combat was very loyal to Martin's writing. Oberyn's death is necessary for two reasons:

    (1) Despite being a crowd favorite, and having far superior fighting skills that the Mountain That Rides, Oberyn did have two fatal flaws: one was his arrogance, and the other was his supreme dedication to revenge. Both of these flaws conspired against him. It makes sense that an arrogant character might flaunt his victory and demand a confession, ignoring the fact that the trial is not yet over. I think his death is fitting, no matter how much it tore me up inside.
    (2) It sets up events to come. Had Oberyn succeeded, the storyline would turn out much different. His death catalyzes numerous events in the future.
     
  13. Legendary Sidekick

    Legendary Sidekick The HAM'ster Moderator

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    It was done just as I pictured it in the book. The same frustration applies, because all he needed to do was not go near him. He could have taunted the mountain from afar, or just cut his eyes out, or… well, anything BUT stand with his ankle near The Mountain's hand.

    monyomonyo, arm bars are fun! Yes, those hurt. I get the feeling The Viper was more of a hit-and-run type as opposed to being a skilled grappler. It seems that all pit fighters (in GRRM's world) specialize in a fighting style and become known for it. Some fighting styles get the fighters killed, though The Red Viper was good enough to beat The Mountain, so you can't blame his style for his demise.


    GryphosGryphos, my brother and I both wanted to throw the same book because of the same scene. Not this one, but yeah, there is that sense of frustration when some characters have these goals but their life ends before they can realize their goals. For a tragic character, Oberon did well. He DID get The Mountain to confess. And he did put three holes in the big guy.

    Sadly, it's Tyrion's plot and others' that are advanced since Oberon's arc ends here.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 11, 2017
  14. Kristene Collins

    Kristene Collins Dreamer

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    I agree with everything in this post. Throughout this season, I kept telling myself, "don't fall in love with this character, he'll be dead before episode ten" but it was SO HARD not to! I was yelling at him as I watched the fight to cool it down and just kill Clegaine, already! Unfortunately, his story ended exactly like it did in the book. On the plus side though, his story ended exactly as it did in the book!

    I also have to give it up to Sansa this episode, she's learning!
     
  15. Gryphos

    Gryphos Auror

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    Alright, I can sort of understand his death, so long as it has a big-ass payoff later. But it better have that payoff.

    Another thing that I am worried about though is that his death doesn't help with the idea of the story being, strangely, so unpredictable that it's becoming, well, predictable. It's coming to the point where in a situation like this you can just go ahead and assume the worst. In fact I already kinda saw Oberyn's death coming because of it, and throughout the fight I was hoping I was wrong. Then it turns out I wasn't and I just wasn't as surprised as I was after Ned's death, for instance, because the story's conditioned me to thinking that things just don't go right for the good guys.
     
  16. Legendary Sidekick

    Legendary Sidekick The HAM'ster Moderator

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    So much happens in A Storm of Swords, I get why it took two seasons to finish that book. I bought the book after season 3 ended because episode 10 was kind of... "what? That's it?"

    There were several predictions about how this season would end, but my guess is that it will end where book 3 ends--meaning this season's final episode will have AN ENDING!

    For those who haven't read the books, Brienne and Podrick travel together in book 4 and Theon helping Ramsey lure dozens of Ironborns to their torturous deaths is book 5.


    @Kristene, yes, it was refreshing to see the major deaths (Joffrey, Oberon) were exactly like the book.

    @Sir Kieran of Massachusetts, okay... so it's not just me that felt Oberon was the most accurately portrayed of the new characters. This is the first season I watched after reading, so it was exciting to see that the look of the character and the way he fought were such a match to my own mental image. Even The Mountain's voice as he "confessed" and how it was timed with the sounds of the brutal killing... that was how I heard it in the book! (Different actor for the Mountain, though I guess I shouldn't be surprised that a big, wounded guy sounds loud and grunty.)
     
  17. SM-Dreamer

    SM-Dreamer Troubadour

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    That's how I felt. I've read the books, I knew Oberyn was going to die, but I was yelling at him too. Like I said previously: video game sense tingling! Back off the monster!

    Damn him and his arrogance, lol.

    Sansa was... interesting to watch... Not what I expected.
     
  18. Sir Kieran

    Sir Kieran Scribe

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    I agree. I like to think of her relationship with Littlefinger as a parallel to that between Arya and the Hound. The Hound is an expert killer, and Arya picks up some tricks along the way. Littlefinger is an expert manipulator and a genius in playing the game of thrones; I expect that Sansa will become adept. One of the producers (I forget which) mentioned in an interview that Sansa might have the capabilities to outmatch Littlefinger, that she might be the only real threat to him. Either way, I've enjoyed Sansa's story arc and cannot wait to see where she goes in The Winds of Winter / further seasons.
     
  19. monyo

    monyo Scribe

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    Sansa has definitely gone from being the single most boring character to one I positively look forward to seeing more of now. I had the same turnaround with Jaime as well around season 3. Still, I was definitely facepalming when I saw the last episode. I'd have gone ahead and gotten Littlefinger out of the way - along with Ramsey and a certain character who hasn't appeared yet, I'd put him as one of the three most bastardly and dangerous in the whole game. Tywin and Cersei may be bad, but as Littlefinger said, at least they're predictable. Still, maybe the right decision. Otherwise she'd probably have traded Littlefinger for being Robyn's plaything (who seems to have a bit of Joffrey in him, even if it's coming from a different place), or the centerpiece (as Winterfell's heir) in a mini-civil war amongst the Vale nobles.
     
  20. Sir Kieran

    Sir Kieran Scribe

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    In terms of character, the Lannister family is dead on. In fact, I would say most of the characters are very true to their book-selves (Jaime happens to be a personal favorite of mine, though). The Mountain . . . I wish he had not been recast. Sure, this new guy is huge and strong, but he just can't give facial expressions like Season 1 Mountain: http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02866/the-mountain_2866202k.jpg


    Relating to Littlefinger, it's very hard to predict what he will do next (especially since the show is slightly veering off course from the books; for example, Littlefinger blames a singer named Marillion on Lysa's fall, and no one discovers that Alayne is actually Sansa). Petyr outlines a plan in the fifth book, to Sansa, but even then it's necessary to question everything he says.

    I think it's quite likely that Petyr will attempt to use Sansa as a pawn in his own game, while Sansa may very well do the same thing to him.
     
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