GoT Season Five [NO SPOILERS, PLEASE]

[Mindfire]

Duuuude! Don't you know the corporate tools are out to control your mind? Wake up sheeple! You're all, like, brainwashed puppets of the media-industrial complex or somethin'. You know what I'm sayin'? Don't conform to the system, maaaaaan.

 

[ThinkerX]

Oh well, I might as well jump in here...

Back when I had television (reception) I would catch an occasional snippet of Leno on the Tonight Show. At one point, he was asked why nude beaches were far more common in Europe than in the US. His response was along the lines of: 'its cultural. The US was founded by people fleeing Europe at the time of the Inquisition because they believed the Inquisition was not strict enough.' Hmmm...A group of zealots using torture and death to suppress dissent was 'not strict enough?'

From my own reading...one of the really big things that most (religious) cults of the destructive variety will do is effectively criminalize sex - and anything sexual - except under highly limited conditions. Which automatically leads to 'issues.' We see this among preachers and politicians on a regular basis: one or another such will vehemently denounce homosexuality or promiscuity...then they get outed for the very things they condemn. But the underlying morals are now so deeply ingrained into US society that questioning them is difficult.

Many of todays movies and written literature feature people getting killed, or killing each other in spectacular and gruesome ways. True even with many of the stories on this site. But the vast majority of people will never be put in a kill or be killed situation. Yet such fare is acceptable even for the preteen set.

Yet, even so much as a bared female breast or nude shot results in a public outcry. This despite the fact that while most people will never kill another human, they are highly likely to have sex. A remnant of the religious cultic mentality kicking in, perhaps.

That said, as somebody who has read a fair number of GRRM's earlier works...he changed things with GOT. His earlier stories...maybe a little bit of swearing or nudity...but not much. With GOT, he made the deliberate decision to ramp up both the sex and the swear words, as a means of setting tone. The people behind the show went and ramped things up even further, adding quite a few sex scenes not in the books.

 

[Mindfire]

Back when I had television (reception) I would catch an occasional snippet of Leno on the Tonight Show. At one point, he was asked why nude beaches were far more common in Europe than in the US. His response was along the lines of: 'its cultural. The US was founded by people fleeing Europe at the time of the Inquisition because they believed the Inquisition was not strict enough.' Hmmm...A group of zealots using torture and death to suppress dissent was 'not strict enough?

That is... not really accurate.

 

[ThinkerX]

That is... not really accurate.

Which one? My Leno paraphrase or the Inquisition using torture and death to keep people in line? Or people fleeing Europe for the right to be really strict religious types?

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I think he meant that it sounded like you thought the puritan immigrants to the new world were fleeing the Spanish inquisition, when they were fleeing the Church of England.

 

[Mindfire]

I think he meant that it sounded like you thought the puritan immigrants to the new world were fleeing the Spanish inquisition, when they were fleeing the Church of England.

Exactly. Also, the puritans weren't fleeing because they thought the church wasn't persecuting people hard enough. They fled because, more or less, they were the ones being persecuted. They weren't leaving Europe so they'd have the right to be strict. What does that even mean?

 

[ThinkerX]

Getting further off topic than we were...

...but a lot of the early English/European colonists belonged to some very...controlling...religious groups. (aka 'Puritans')

These...cultists...imposed a rigid and arguably extreme...standard of morality, for want of a better term, that persists to the current day.

Used to be much more...prevalent...

Ever read up on the old line 'blue laws,' which mandated church attendance and forbade pretty much any work on Sundays?

 

[Mindfire]

You can't label the Puritans a cult by any reasonably fair standard. I mean, really. And their codes of conduct only seem rigid and extreme from a modern, especially secular perspective. They were not exactly "extreme" by the standards of the time, just out of step with the Church of England. Nowadays the common view is to think of one's religious life and one's public life as very separate things, but it wasn't always so. The Puritans were a society in which religion was as much a matter of public discourse and conduct as private faith. Their laws and customs are an expression of that.

Are you referring to any specific standards of morality that seem "controlling", "rigid", and "extreme" to you?

 

[X Equestris]

Getting further off topic than we were...

...but a lot of the early English/European colonists belonged to some very...controlling...religious groups. (aka 'Puritans')

These...cultists...imposed a rigid and arguably extreme...standard of morality, for want of a better term, that persists to the current day.

Used to be much more...prevalent...

Ever read up on the old line 'blue laws,' which mandated church attendance and forbade pretty much any work on Sundays?

And a lot of the colonists, especially those outside of New England, didn't come to the Americas because of anything to do with their religion. I think it's a mistake to blame America's general conservativeness towards sex on the Puritans alone. And to tie this back to the actual topic, Game of Thrones, a lot of the criticism I see of the show's handling of sex and sex related issues comes more from the sex-negative wing of feminism than the religious right or something like that.

 

[ThinkerX]

Are you referring to any specific standards of morality that seem "controlling", "rigid", and "extreme" to you?

We are getting too far off topic here. There are reasons I do not normally participate in such threads anymore. But, do what I used to do back in my religious debating days - Google 'Liftons 8 point criteria' and compare those points against the religious group of your choice.

You might also wish to Google 'blue laws' while you are at it.

 

[Mindfire]

We are getting too far off topic here. There are reasons I do not normally participate in such threads anymore. But, do what I used to do back in my religious debating days - Google 'Liftons 8 point criteria' and compare those points against the religious group of your choice.

You might also wish to Google 'blue laws' while you are at it.

I know what the "blue laws" are. The point I'm making is that you're judging them from a modern secular viewpoint and giving no consideration to temporal or cultural context. In a society where everyone's already going to church and abstaining from work on Sunday, having a law regarding such isn't really a big deal. It would be as normal to them as a law against stealing. And I'm not sure anyone in the religious "mainstream" of the time would particularly object to such laws either. Religious plurality wasn't so much a thing back then.

Conjecture: Your anti-religious animus is causing you to view the matter through a biased lens.

 

[ThinkerX]

I am many things. 'Anti-religious' is not one of them.

 

[Mindfire]

Eh. It was only conjecture. Typically it's overzealous atheists who are eager to label everything a cult.

 

[ThinkerX]

Most of the time I was at the religious debate sites, my stance was (and remains):

'Agnostic with a tendency towards theism'

aka...

'there may be a God, but pretty much all religions fail dramatically in describing Gods, nature, intent, and abilities'

or

'too many unknowns to be making definitive statements'

On the other hand, regardless of the belief system from which they originate, psychologically destructive religious groups share similar traits and at least attempt to do similar things if the opportunity presents. (as part of a personal project, I made a sort of...religious history, focusing on primary texts, comparisons of beliefs, and...hmm...'cultic mentality.' 700 single spaced pages when I printed it out.)

 

[Mindfire]

On the other hand, regardless of the belief system from which they originate, psychologically destructive religious groups share similar traits and at least attempt to do similar things if the opportunity presents. (as part of a personal project, I made a sort of...religious history, focusing on primary texts, comparisons of beliefs, and...hmm...'cultic mentality.' 700 single spaced pages when I printed it out.)

Widen your net and you'll find this is not a trait unique to religious groups. It can happen with just about any human institution, including- and especially- secular totalitarian regimes.

 

[ThinkerX]

Widen your net and you'll find this is not a trait unique to religious groups. It can happen with just about any human institution, including- and especially- secular totalitarian regimes.

Oh yes. Lifton's criteria includes political and other groups.

 

[Mindfire]

Oh yes. Lifton's criteria includes political and other groups.

Ahem. So how bout that grisly murder in Game of Thrones Season 5, eh?

 

[ThinkerX]

As of yet, I have seen only short You-Tube clips of season 5. Which grisly murder are you referring to? There appear to quite a few.

I am wondering if a giant fleet of ticked off Iron Born drop anchor off Mereen next season, though.

And I really expected Stanis to last long enough to sack the Twins and wipe out most of the Frey's.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I am wondering if a giant fleet of ticked off Iron Born drop anchor off Mereen next season, though.

I'm so looking forward to that. Victarion is a personal favorite.

 

[ThinkerX]

Good a place as any, I suppose:

‘Game of Thrones’ Likely to End After Season 8, Says HBO Chief

"Obviously we're shooting season six now, hopefully discussing seven," Lombardo said Thursday at the Television Critics Association summer press tour. He indicated that the final word on when to end the series will rest with showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss. "I think their feeling is we're looking at two more seasons after six. I'm hoping they'll change their minds, but that's what we're looking at right now."

Season 5 of "Game of Thrones ended in June. The show is nominated for eight Primetime Emmy awards, including best drama series. Asked whether the network would be open to a prequel, Lombardo again deferred to Benioff and Weiss.

"I'm open to anything Dan and David would want to do [with Game of Thrones],: ha said, adding, "but no conversations yet."

Asked to chime in on whether fan-favorite character Jon Snow is dead, as he appeared to be at the end of last season, Lombardo echoed the show's producers, saying, "Dead is dead is dead. He be dead. Yes. Everything I've seen, heard and read, he is dead."

Sounds about right.