GoT and ASoIaF Discussion Thread [SPOILER-FEST - READERS ONLY]

[T.Allen.Smith]

There is the small problem of Sansa still being technically married to Tyrion, though.

The wedding was never consummated though....

Hopefully, we still get a giant fleet of Ironborn dropping anchor off Merleen by seasons end.

Yeah, I know, cast of hundreds, can't include them all, but still...

Yes! Looking forward to seeing Victarion Greyjoy!

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

So, I don't know about the rest of you book wankers, but… holy shit.

I used to be in the It Must Be Like The Book camp. Now I'm like, okay show, surprise me if you want.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Well, thanks a lot HBO. Maybe that ending is symbolic of all the WTF-ish deviations, like Sansa's the plot in the book and Ramsey is the HBO writers. I'm Theon.

So… that ending was a real downer, but I think the reason for the queen getting arrested is a stupid change. Her virginity being in question made more sense because, well, it's possible she really was a virgin, hence her innocence. Now in the show she's imprisoned for bearing false witness, and she's actually guilty of that. So, WTF?

Seriously, I started this season telling myself it's wrong to be a purist book wanker, just accept the changes. Only… I don't get it. The whole story's written for you already. Why change stuff and eff up the story? Is it me, or do the changes–at least some of them–create plot holes that the show writers can't dig their way out of, so they deviate even further from the book.

What's Dany doing? No time for that! We have to explain how Jamie and Bronn face the sand snakes without any of them ending up dead. Guy-who-married-his-axe to the rescue! So what's the point of Jamie's venture? Well… I guess, being a book wanker, I know he technically saved his daughter's ear.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I used to be in the It Must Be Like The Book camp. Now I'm like, okay show, surprise me if you want.

Oh, shut up, me.

 

[ThinkerX]

I'm going from little snippets posted to You-Tube, but...

...a lot of the changes make for a better story. Fake Ayra in fake marriage to murderous nut job is one thing. Real Sansa in same marriage is something else, more immediate.

Jamie trying to directly rescue his daughter while learning how to fight with an artificial hand is more dramatic than the succession of White Cloaks sent Dorne's way.

And Tormund insisting that Jon take a direct hand in rescuing the wildlings is more dramatic, story wise, than in the books.

That said...I dislike the way fake Aegon got cut from the movies. Dropping the Dornish prince all set to marry Dany - the one roasted by dragonfire in the books - is a bit more problematic. I mean, in the books, the guy basically accomplished two things: getting himself killed and making an alliance between Dany and Dorne problematic, and releasing the dragons. Almost a waste.

The bit I'm hoping doesn't get cut from the movies is a great big fleet of ticked off Iron Born showing up off Merleen.

At this point, I'm tending towards the thought of the TV series being the draft Martin should have wrote. A new and improved edition.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Interesting perspective, X.

Well, I have to admit, I like the Brienne and Jaime changes most. I hate seeing Sansa in Jeyne Pool's position, but you know something? Yes, it is better storytelling. I actually care more about Sansa than the fake Arya.

I'm still not sold on all of the changes, but I suppose it's better to accept them since the HBO version of the story may be the only one that ends. I definitely miss the stupid prince getting roasted by dragons, and the pit fight won't be the same without Strong Balwas or that woman who takes on the boar. (I felt so bad for her, but it was one of my favorite scenes. I ended up re-reading the pit fight right away, it was so awesome.)

 

[StoryTypewriter]

My bet is that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyana Stark. A lot of the little hints seem to point towards that being the case. Also, some possible subtext from that lore book that got released recently mentions a marriage alliance between the Starks and the Targaryens in the distant past. And that pact was known as the Pact of Ice and Fire.

Wow, really? I remember at some point in the books that there was a very vague explanation in the form of Ned Stark thoughts going back to it probably when he was in prison regreting never telling Jon Snow about his origins. Didn't he had an affair with a noble lady from a faraway land?

Where did you find hints that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyana Stark?

Just looking around quickly, I found in AGoT:

a) CATELYN: " Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. "

b) EDDARD: "“You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time . . . what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was . . . Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”
“Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like . . . ”

Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Ctelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”

 

[StoryTypewriter]

So, I don't know about the rest of you book wankers, but… holy shit.

I used to be in the It Must Be Like The Book camp. Now I'm like, okay show, surprise me if you want.

I agree with you Legendary Sidekick. It actually caught me by surprise, I was like wait a minute... Sansa never gets to marry Ramsey... and at least not that I remembered.

I have come to the conclusion that George R. R. Martin has been given the chance of a lifetime. To be able to re-write and polish his own story in the process to bring it to the screen. He appears in the show's writing credits for a reason. I think it is a smart move and I am enjoying the ride.

Yes, Sansa gets it rough... but she has her lady-knight in shining armour at the castle doors waiting for sign to rescue her... then Sam the Slayer finally gets the girl... and the Jamie-Bronn combo works wonders. And Tyrion gets to Dani Targaryen right away. Who knows... maybe the author feels generous and gives us additional information that doesn't appear in the books sush as Jon Snow parents or the arrival of Dani to Westeros.

What I can't wait to see in the show is the Iron Born's reunion with all the ships... if they do everything right, could be worth watching. It is one of the parts that I am missing as well as the prince of Dorne getting roasted by a dragon... and what about Dani been taking away by Drogon to who knows where after the mess at the fighting pit? Anyway, so much improved and so much missing.

 

[X Equestris]

Wow, really? I remember at some point in the books that there was a very vague explanation in the form of Ned Stark thoughts going back to it probably when he was in prison regreting never telling Jon Snow about his origins. Didn't he had an affair with a noble lady from a faraway land?

Where did you find hints that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyana Stark?

Just looking around quickly, I found in AGoT:

a) CATELYN: " Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. "

b) EDDARD: "“You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time . . . what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was . . . Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”
“Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like . . . ”

Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”

I'll see I i can find a page listing some stuff. There are a lot of little things, though.

 

[X Equestris]

Here we go:

Jon Snow/Theories - A Wiki of Ice and Fire - A Song of Ice and Fire & Game of Thrones

 

[StoryTypewriter]

Great link! Thanks for posting X Equestris

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

So, without Strong Belwas to eat the chocolate roaches (or whatever they were), I wonder who'll be in his place—Tyrion or Dario?

 

[ascanius]

OK so.. I've been stewing over this for a while. Does anyone else have a problem with Sansa and the sadistic Ramsay bolton wedding night. Frankly that whole scene really pissed me off, not to mention their marriage. None of it was in the books which really irks me. I think the way it's done in the books is much better it gives another level of sadistic perversion to Ramsay without showing it (that whole creepy part where Jeyne Poole mentions the dog). I was shocked when I read that because well... it's really shocking to learn just how screwed up he is, it added another level if you will. This...this doesn't really add anything to Ramsy we already know he has no problem with violence and rape. It isn't even like with Cersei and Jamie where the whole interaction was complex and questionable.... This...I just don't get it. The other thing I'm having trouble with is Sansa going from a very naive and frankly incapable person to suddenly deciding to subvert the Boltons from the inside in the span of a few episodes without really demonstrating her taking the initiative anywhere else. Did she wake up one morning and suddenly decide to avenger her family and be a hero...no wait she did exactly that. It doesn't make sense. I didn't agree with a lot of the criticism with the whole Cersei and Jamie encounter but this I agree with a lot of the criticism I have read.

In the books it was from Reeks POV but in the show it's from Reeks, Sansa's? It goes back and forth, and like at the last minute it switches to Reek? WTF. I mean if your going to show something like that show it and give it the attention it deserves. It's like the writers got the willies at the last minute so decided to show Reek crying? I get that it's painful for him too but it kinda pushes Sansa to the background, who is ALSO a POV character. Maybe they could have split it up better you know give Sansa her due first then switch to reek so as not to diminish the trauma Sansa is enduring.

I don't know the show is pushing it for me right now. I really really hate admitting this and I feel horrible but I think some small part of my anger stems from this happening to Sansa, who is a POV character. When it was Jeyne Poole it was removed enough that it was readable, this is much closer to home and I think they didn't drop the ball, they completely lost it.

If they keep going down this road I think they need to do a better job.

 

[stephenspower]

Everything about that scene was wrong. Maybe it made sense on paper, given how they were changing the books. Maybe it felt necessary as a first towards turning Reek back into Theon and against Ramsey. Maybe it even felt literary, showing Sansa's agony in Theon's tears. But come on. The minute they were on set someone should have said, This won't just be horrible to watch. It's lazy writing. There are more interesting, original and subtle ways to do this. In fact, Sansa's first scene in the next episode was better, if not more cliched. The best way to show violence is through the response to it and its effect, not through the act itself.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

@ascanius, I really hated that episode because of the ending. Here were my feelings just after viewing:

Well, thanks a lot HBO. Maybe that ending is symbolic of all the WTF-ish deviations, like Sansa's the plot in the book and Ramsey is the HBO writers. I'm Theon.

 

[Ophiucha]

Well, Stannis' entire character arc was just destroyed, trampled upon, salted, and burned on a pyre built from torn-out pages of hundreds of copies of Winds of Winters, each printed with the quote: "— you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt." But I still hate this less than what they've done with Sansa, so I can't say I'm even all that mad.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Yeah, that Stannis arc was total BS, especially about the story about him refusing to let her die of grayscale. The departure from the book in the arena was a fun one, and I was able to enjoy it. But the WTF moment of the girl burning and my lack of anger was the result of me not taking the writers of the show seriously at this point.

I seriously felt nothing for the character because the burning was a total immersion-breaker, and now I've come to expect nonsensical plot devices meant to shock.

 

[StoryTypewriter]

I was quized at Ophiucha until I what the episode. Absolutely ridiculuos... thank God for the writer that put the hand up so Arya wouldn't be raped already. Agreed with Legendary... non sense WTF moment with Stanis daughter. It is not funny anymore. Tyrion and the dragon really saved the day, best scene of the season!

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

GoT has taken a frustrating turn this season. We have what... 3 deaths that didn't happen in the book now? Ser Barristan, Princess Shireen, and Dany's Jackass Husband Who Nobody Cares About. Sansa and Stannis have crappy character arcs now. Sansa will bounce back, but Stannis is just a total dick. And why the hell does Ramsey's silly plan work? 20 guys just waltz into enemy camp and it's all buh? wha? many fires? And if Stannis knew there were 20 guys, unless they counted Ramsey & Co. as they ran off... well, as I said, I have a hard time taking the writers seriously as this point.

Yeah, I can recognize some improvements. Brienne isn't scouring the globe just to end up betrayed by Zombie Catelyn. Jaime doesn't get betrayed by Brienne, or maybe she doesn't betray him, hopefully book 6 will clarify that one. Gilly not being shipped off with the wrong kid... yeah, that's cool, as was Jon's fight up north. This week's and last week's episodes both ended in awesomeness.

But... I think the HBO writers need someone who's willing to say, "Yeah, most successful thing on TV over the past 5 years, but your shit still stinks. This scene is crap; don't do it." This season's been a mixed bag of boring, WTF, just okay, and awesomeness. It's not that they deviated so far from the book that bothers me, but that enough deviations were done badly that I wonder if the success just went to their heads. "We made so much we can build a mansion out of gold-plated $100 bills! This season, let's just be shocking." Maybe for the finale, they'll just zoom in on a penis for ten straight minutes because shocking.

 

[SeverinR]

The last part does sum up this season so far.
(Not a part of this thread, only read to middle of book 2)