Writing from the Female POV

[PaulineMRoss]

People told me for months that The Lions of Al-Rassan had a female protagonist with agency, and when I finally had a chance to read it, I discovered that wasn't true.

Mostly when when people say that a book has a female protagonist with agency, they mean one of the main characters is female and she does stuff. It's really not the same thing.

Here are a few that I've enjoyed recently that genuinely have female protagonists with agency:

'Havenstar' by Glenda Larke
Anything by Andrea K Höst
The Draykon trilogy by Charlotte E English
'Thorn' by Intisar Khanani
'The Duchess of the Shallows' by Neil McGarry and Daniel Ravipinto

 

[Jamber]

You also have difficulty trusting adaptations, too. Game of Thrones, though the source material had problematic elements, has a lot of unnecessary misogynistic overtones. In a recent episode, a female character (Brienne of Tarth) insulted one of the male characters by comparing him to a woman... when she herself was a woman, and considered women who die in childbirth equally valiant as those who die in combat.

GRR Martin certainly produces interesting characters, but I don't think he sets out to write feminist ones. I'd argue instead that he uses that particular struggle (woman against limiting gender norms) as a source of narrative and internal conflict, just as he uses father-son, inheritance, sexuality, you name it. As far as I can see, everyone in GOT has a huge conflict that pits them against their own inner core of place/self/belief and stops them being who they believe they should be.

For Brienne to utter a misogynist insult was, for me, interesting (and consistent) rather than disappointing.

cheers

Jennie

 

[Steerpike]

For Brienne to utter a misogynist insult was, for me, interesting (and consistent) rather than disappointing.

And, such an insult would probably have the intended effect on the target.

 

[Shockley]

Reading threads like this make me think of the last two women I dated, who are very different.

The first one was very, very emotional (to the extreme) and was a music major. The other one was very logical and rational and, like me, is a historian/political scientist - she can out bench most people and drinks Scotch like a champ.

 

[saellys]

... Moriarty is like my favourite literary character and I would kill for a good genderbend of him.

YES PLEASE.

You also have difficulty trusting adaptations, too. Game of Thrones, though the source material had problematic elements, has a lot of unnecessary misogynistic overtones. In a recent episode, a female character (Brienne of Tarth) insulted one of the male characters by comparing him to a woman... when she herself was a woman, and considered women who die in childbirth equally valiant as those who die in combat. In the same scene of the book, she just called him 'craven'. Arya Stark had a similar scene last season, I believe. It's very irritating that they would take these female characters who were, by and large, positive and female-friendly and add so much unnecessary pettiness to the characters (not to mention a couple of extra scenes of assault against these women). I love the show, but it really bothers me that the writers would change that element of the source material.

This is my number one problem with Game of Thrones right now. That Brienne line tore me up inside, and Arya's "most girls are idiots" moment last season was completely out of character. More on that below...

Mostly when when people say that a book has a female protagonist with agency, they mean one of the main characters is female and she does stuff. It's really not the same thing.

Here are a few that I've enjoyed recently that genuinely have female protagonists with agency:

'Havenstar' by Glenda Larke
Anything by Andrea K Höst
The Draykon trilogy by Charlotte E English
'Thorn' by Intisar Khanani
'The Duchess of the Shallows' by Neil McGarry and Daniel Ravipinto

Too right. I think you and I generally agree on what agency really means, so I will definitely put these in my queue!

GRR Martin certainly produces interesting characters, but I don't think he sets out to write feminist ones. I'd argue instead that he uses that particular struggle (woman against limiting gender norms) as a source of narrative and internal conflict, just as he uses father-son, inheritance, sexuality, you name it. As far as I can see, everyone in GOT has a huge conflict that pits them against their own inner core of place/self/belief and stops them being who they believe they should be.

For Brienne to utter a misogynist insult was, for me, interesting (and consistent) rather than disappointing.

cheers

Jennie

But Martin has a grasp on the nuances of humanity within those conflicts, and he understands that just because someone transgresses the societal norms for their gender (Arya, Brienne, Asha Greyjoy, the Mormont ladies), does not mean they have to despise the people who fit into those norms. It takes very little contextual analysis to see that Arya had a deep-seated wish to fit in socially the way Sansa did. She wasn't good at "ladylike" things, and it was a source of frustration to her even as "manly" things were a source of enjoyment.

As for Brienne, her admiration for other women is overt in the text. Like Ophiucha said, she expressed disgust at the injustice that no one wrote songs about women who died in childbirth. She admired Catelyn Stark immensely, and it wasn't because Catelyn bore her trials "like a man," so I can't help but wonder which "bloody woman" show-Brienne had encountered that book-Brienne had not to so sour her attitude toward the gender.

And, such an insult would probably have the intended effect on the target.

But why? Why does that have to be the impetus? Jaime likes women (well, okay, Cersei), and by that point in the book and the show, he already liked and respected Brienne. Someone on Tumblr told me Brienne was trying to make a statement about Jaime's own misogyny, but that doesn't make sense to me, because how would saying he sounded like a woman teach him anything about misogyny? He sat up and got over himself and ate some bread, so I guess it didn't.

 

[Steerpike]

I haven't seen the show. However, if Brienne was talking to someone she knew to be a misogynist, I could see the line as one meant to bait that person with an insult, and probably effectively. It's all about context and character. Whether the comment was in line with her character, I don't know.

 

[glutton]

I would hesitate to condemn a female character for making a sexist-sounding comment. In real life, people who say 'controversial' things are not necessarily 'bad' people or truly prejudiced. Someone who calls another person a 'faggot' mockingly doesn't have to hate actual gay people, nor does a woman who criticizes a man for being a 'girl' need think her own gender inferior. Some people are just verbal barbarians and don't concern themselves with being PC, but just say whatever comes to mind based on the type of speech they've heard growing up... in some ways, these people might be appreciated for being more pure.

 

[Ophiucha]

I agree with saellys' assessment of the characters in regards to whether or not they would use/be effected by the line in question, but I would go so far as to even say that it doesn't matter if they would. The point is that in the book, the exact same scene played out in the same way with the line 'craven'. The writers of the show chose to change this to a gendered insult for no reason. At best, it is just an unnecessary alteration from the source material. At worst, it is unnecessarily sexist and out of character for two of the major recurring characters of the series.

A single instance could be excused, if still ultimately unnecessary, but the fact is that the writers have done this several times with different characters. Arya saying "most girls are idiots" is, again, out of character for her - she's a lady, who loves and respects her mother and sister (who are both very ladylike). There was also Asha Greyjoy - who I think has a different name in the show, but I can't remember what it was. She has a line in the books where she scoffs at men who use the word c**t... and in the show, she calls her brother the exact same word. The lack of irony with which they could write that into her character is profound.

 

[glutton]

There was also Asha Greyjoy - who I think has a different name in the show, but I can't remember what it was. She has a line in the books where she scoffs at men who use the word c**t... and in the show, she calls her brother the exact same word. The lack of irony with which they could write that into her character is profound.

Well in the case of Asha, they did change her character quite a bit overall and when you look at her on the show, she kind of looks exactly like the kind of person who would use the word 'c**t'... yeah I know talking about her look might be stereotyping, but I think that's what the show creators are trying to do ie. reinforce how the character is supposed to come off with her appearance... and off topic I think she has an awesome look on the show, much prefer it to most of the fanart depictions of Asha made before she was cast. *Ducks tomatoes*

 

[Ophiucha]

I don't agree with the idea that somebody could "[look] exactly like the kind of person who would use the word 'c**t'", but I do prefer how she looks on the show to most of the fanart - I love Elia Fernandez's illustration of her, but I think it looks a fair bit like how she does on the show, anyway.

Regarding the comment above my previous one, I think it really depends on who says it and in what context. A woman - like Asha - using the word c**t, or a gay person using the word fa**ot is very different from a man or a straight person using it. The latter could be excused between friends, if everyone in the group is comfortable with that. My old group in high school was almost entirely female, save for one guy, and we always let him use 'b*tch' in the same friendly way we did with each other. But if you're using it as an insult in any context, regardless of your own gender/sexuality/whatever, it really doesn't matter if you don't regard yourself as sexist or homophobic, you are using the word to demean somebody by implying that being that way is bad; it simply wouldn't be an insult if all you were saying is 'don't be such a person with slightly different biological and social traits to you', it's an insult because the word 'woman' or any of the less pleasant derogatives carries the connotation of negativity (specifically, of weakness). When Asha is talking to Theon in the show, it is used as an insult; when Brienne likens Jaime to a 'bloody woman' it is an insult.

ETA: On a related note and on the earlier subject of recommendations: anyone have any good ones for more - for lack of a better word - feminine female protagonists? Many of the great female protagonists mentioned so far in this thread have been warrior women and runaway princesses escaping arranged marriage sorts of ladies, which is fine, but one of my favourite Game of Thrones ladies is Sansa Stark, so I'd love more recs for girls like her who get their own story. The only one that comes to mind off the top of my head is Mrs. Frisby from Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH (Mrs. Brisby, if you've only seen the film). The 'mothers protecting their kids/homes' is probably the most typical plot line with that sort of character, but I love a good subversion of that if anyone has any ideas.

 

[glutton]

Regarding the comment above my previous one, I think it really depends on who says it and in what context. A woman - like Asha - using the word c**t, or a gay person using the word fa**ot is very different from a man or a straight person using it. The latter could be excused between friends, if everyone in the group is comfortable with that. My old group in high school was almost entirely female, save for one guy, and we always let him use 'b*tch' in the same friendly way we did with each other. But if you're using it as an insult in any context, regardless of your own gender/sexuality/whatever, it really doesn't matter if you don't regard yourself as sexist or homophobic, you are using the word to demean somebody by implying that being that way is bad; it simply wouldn't be an insult if all you were saying is 'don't be such a person with slightly different biological and social traits to you', it's an insult because the word 'woman' or any of the less pleasant derogatives carries the connotation of negativity (specifically, of weakness). When Asha is talking to Theon in the show, it is used as an insult; when Brienne likens Jaime to a 'bloody woman' it is an insult.

It might be a little different in this context because the source material doesn't use such language, but in general I wouldn't think much of a female character using a gendered term as an insult - I've heard females in real life mock guys like this many times, and I wouldn't think that those women are sexist against their own gender... it's natural for people to do this, and I find it a leap to attribute sexist motives based on it. Most people, I'd think, don't think so much when throwing out insults whether in real anger or in jest, how often do younger people say 'faggot' offhand without even actually thinking about homosexuality? A female character using a gendered term as an insult does reflect the values of the culture they (or even the writer) live in, but I don't think there's any 'responsibility' to watch out for it and/or avoid it. To read so much into offhand use of language is often over-scrutinizing things IMO, and it's much better to judge the characters or work as a whole than to nitpick at 'sexist' language that women use all the time in real life, and people don't and are hardly obliged to think about.

I think the GoT TV writers just thought that the language they choose fit/'worked' in the scene, and if so, why should they be required to be so concerned with anything else? As for changing it from the source material, maybe they didn't pay that much attention to the nuances mentioned or remember it?

 

[Steerpike]

Changing it from the books does make me wonder what their thought processes was. Seems like a pointless decision.

I do think it all comes down to character and context for this sort of thing. For example, Loki's insult in the Avengers movie caused a big uproar. As soon as I heard it in the theater I knew people would be upset about it, but in the context of that movie it didn't bother me. Loki's a bad guy and it seemed to me to be the sort of thing he might say. It wasn't held out as positive in any way. If Stark had said it, it's a different story.

Characters have to be free to act in character, and that includes despicable characters. In the case of Brienne, going with what was written in the book makes a lot more sense, it seems to me. Not sure who thought it was a good idea to change the dialogue.

 

[glutton]

But what I was thinking is that maybe the show writers just didn't pay that much attention to things like Asha protesting the word 'c**t' or forgot about it, and/or didn't think about the implications of the other lines mentioned. That might be my own bias working though to attribute a lack of carefulness (like mine lol) to the writers.

The worst of the lines mentioned is definitely Arya's though which is pretty unlikeable when you think about it.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

...Arya's "most girls are idiots" moment last season was completely out of character.

...It takes very little contextual analysis to see that Arya had a deep-seated wish to fit in socially the way Sansa did. She wasn't good at "ladylike" things, and it was a source of frustration to her even as "manly" things were a source of enjoyment.

This is an interesting take on the Arya character. I never saw her "most girls are idiots" moment as out of character as I felt she views other girls in the same way she views Sansa. She thinks they all aspire to be Sansa and finds that idiotic. Further, we interpreted Arya's viewpoint on social expectations differently. Where you saw a desire to fit in socially like Sansa and a frustration as she tried to do so, I felt she was frustrated because she was expected to do so. The frustration, in my view, came from her disinterest in "ladylike" pursuit yet still being forced along that path.

 

[Mindfire]

Just to be clear, what's the difference between calling someone a c**t and calling them a dick? Other than the fact that one is (for whatever reason) more profane than the other?

EDIT: Also, I'm casting my vote on the "Arya's line was in character" side. I don't think it made her unlikable. Quite the opposite. She reminds me of my sister in a way. She'd say something like that.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Characters have to be free to act in character, and that includes despicable characters. In the case of Brienne, going with what was written in the book makes a lot more sense, it seems to me. Not sure who thought it was a good idea to change the dialogue.

Well, Martin is also a TV writer & has had a long career in TV. He works on that aspect along with HBO so I'm certain he had a high level of input on the decision.

 

[Steerpike]

Well, Martin is also a TV writer & has had a long career in TV. He works on that aspect along with HBO so I'm certain he had a high level of input on the decision.

Yeah, that's true, he has a great deal of experience in television. Maybe he made the change or approved it, I don't know. Would be interesting to be behind the scenes when writers make these kinds of decisions.

For what it's worth, my view of Arya from the books is that she doesn't really like 'girls' that much, as a general rule. It has been so long I'd have to go back to see what made me think that, but I knew 'tomboys' growing up who could hardly stand other girls, and she strikes me that way a lot of the time.

 

[glutton]

The line could be in character, I just said it was the 'worst' meaning that IMO it seems the most worthy of drawing ire compared to 'c**t' or 'woman' used as insults.

 

[Nihal]

For what it's worth, my view of Arya from the books is that she doesn't really like 'girls' that much, as a general rule. It has been so long I'd have to go back to see what made me think that, but I knew 'tomboys' growing up who could hardly stand other girls, and she strikes me that way a lot of the time.

I had the same impression, wanting to fit in doesn't equal to "liking". It also brings to my mind the proverb "It is only at the tree loaded with fruit that people throw stones.".

About Brienne's line, it makes sense to me. She had a goal and said what was needed to achieve it. I get the feeling that sometimes she's already so over the issue that words don't matter anymore. She knows her truth, she believes it, she can say something she knows will be an insult to a man–specially because it's coming from a woman–without agreeing with it because she's sure of her beliefs and words are just words.

 

[Ophiucha]

From what I've heard, George R. R. Martin is too busy (god knows doing what because I'm not seeing a new book out yet George...) to have a heavy hand in the little elements of the show like specific lines - he writes his one episode a season and gets asked about major changes like reworking the time line or adding/removing characters, but something like changing 'craven' to 'bloody woman' in an otherwise identical scene probably doesn't make it to his desk.

Regarding Arya: I personally did not see Arya as against the other girls - she wasn't like them, but she wasn't above them, either. She has problems with the way things are for women, and in some ways she definitely projects that onto the women in her life, but she is unquestionably very respectful of her mother and Sansa despite them being feminine, and she definitely wouldn't consider them part of a broad 'most girls are idiots' line. Given how few other girls she knows, at best we can assume she is making an unfounded, broad generalization about girls she's never met, which just doesn't seem in character for her, given everything.

Regarding Mindfire's Question on Insults: Well, the basic fact that femininity is regarded as "worse" than masculinity is really the only thing that differentiates them - I don't really like any gendered insults, though the vast majority of curse words are that way. On a raw level, I don't think there is a strong difference between c**t and d*ck - they both mean, essentially, the same thing, as long as you are using it on the gender the insult pertains to. A history of sexism in Westeros (and our world) makes c**t more powerful as an insult, because it has been used to demean people who were oppressed. Also, I think female gendered insults are made worse by the society in question's sexism because... well, if you call a woman a d*ck, it doesn't really mean anything worse than calling a man a d*ck... but if you call a man a c**t, you are not only conveying the same meaning as the masculine insult, but you are also attaching femininity to it - this is particularly true of b***h and p***y, which are both used explicitly to convey weakness when used again a man.

Part of it is also very much how the society of Westeros views women. While I wouldn't call our society a utopia of gender equality by any stretch, modern day America is leaps and bounds ahead of Westeros and that gives gendered insults much less power. Consider, for instance, 'bastard'. In our society, that... doesn't mean anything. It's a cuss, an insult, but it has no backing in anything. There is no societal prejudice against the children of unwed couples, nobody uses 'bastard' in the same way every man, woman, and child uses it against Jon Snow. In their society, it is a more powerful insult, and in a society where women are regarded as poorly as they are in Westeros, a word like c**t has a lot more power, too.

For the record, I'm only *asterisking since I'm not sure which words are against the rules for this forum. Don't want to tip off any censors or whatever.