Writing from the Female POV

[Steerpike]

Just to add some examples (either from a quick glance at my own shelves):

Garth Nix's Sabriel.
Juliet Marillier
Mindy Klasky's Glasswright series
Kristen Britain
Megan Lindholm
Abercrombie's Best Served Cold has been mentioned
Meredith Ann Pierce
S.D. Tower, The Assassin's of Tamurin
Robin McKinley (The Hero and the Crown, and others)
The Privilege of the Sword, Ellen Kushner
Tanith Lee
God Stalk, P.C. Hodgell
Joan D. Vinge
Philip Pullman (Golden Compass)
Elizabeth Scarborough (Bronwyn's Bane, and others - great books btw)

This is just from me looking over my shoulder. I haven't even gotten into the vast bulk of my books, which are in boxes. And then, of course, so many I don't have.

I'd throw in Marion Zimmer Bradley, Octavia Butler, Ursula K. LeGuin, Angela Carter, etc., but that would probably get written on as "feminist" fantasy (though I'm not sure why that matters).

 

[Chilari]

This is a specific situation and different from saying there is a lack of female led fantasy available in general though... I'm sure if you looked on Amazon you could find enough female led fantasy to only read it and nothing else.

Not very useful for internet-less 14 year old me in 2002. My point is, those of us who are adults now didn't have the internet to guide us to good books when we were growing up, we had what was available to us in school and local libraries, and if that was 98% male led, then 98% of what we read was male led. Now, it's not quite so bad in 2013 because there's a lot that has been written in the last decade featuring female leads, but even stuff written by female authors is quite often male led - look at Robin Hobb's books. The Farseer trilogy, the Soldier Son trilogy, the Tawny Man Trilogy, all male led; the Liveship trilogy was more half and half, but not female-only led. And that's from a female writer. I would be willing to bet the protagonist gender divide in the 100 bestselling fantasy novels published in each of the last 5 years is not even at 70/30 yet, certainly not 50/50. I wonder if there are any studies available for that information.

And that's the point here: if we're constantly told, implicitly or explicitly, that the male perspective is more worthy of attention, more worthy of adventure, than the female perspective, then how are you going to get authors, even female authors, writing female characters? This about it: it's such a big problem that women like me and Ophiucha thought we couldn't write female protagonists, because we'd never been shown how to do so convincingly.

 

[glutton]

what was available to us in school and local libraries

Who's to blame for this though, the industry or the libraries that choose to order mostly male-led books themselves? If more of the bestselling books are male led, is that because there are no female led books being written or because people aren't buying them as much?

 

[Chilari]

Who's to blame for this though, the industry or the libraries that choose to order mostly male-led books themselves? If more of the bestselling books are male led, is that because there are no female led books being written or because people aren't buying them as much?

Or is it a symptom of a much large problem with the patriarchal mindset; a self-fullfilling prophecy, as it were? It is becuase of the biases built in to the minds of publishing houses' editors, bookshop chains' buyers, and so on? Might it be that male led books are for general reading, whereas female led books are just for girls to read? Might the male led books have recieved larger marketing budgets than the female led books because of this? It's probably impossible to find out now, at least on a scale which would enable a largescale study, but these are factors that need to be considered. It's not just a case of "male led books are better thus sell better so there", you've got to ask why they sold better, why more were published, whether it was an inbalance in what people were writing, or what publishers were publishing, or both, and why.

Do you deny there are fewer female-led books than male-led? If not, why are we arguing? If you do deny this, we'll have to look at stats and numbers in some detail to get to the bottom of things in an undeniable manner, though that will require some serious legwork I doubt any of us have time for.

My experience has been a lack of female led fantasy. The specific examples people have given don't change that; that I missed these books could have been for any number of reasons, from the level of knowledge my school's librarian had about fantasy suitable for 11 to 18 year olds, to what the publishers thought was worth publishing and promoting, to random chance (it's possible I missed some good books by virtue of them frequently being out, read by my classmates or neighbours). But my experiences with reading fantasy which was predominantly male led left me with the belief that I could not write female protagonists, and that is a symptom of the problem at large.

 

[glutton]

Is an individual person's experience necessarily a symptom of a problem at large though? Nobody said anything about male led books being 'better' but could it be that readers both male and female go for them more, and if that's the case are the readers or industry being 'wrong' or maybe there is another reason? Also does whether or not the female-led books are 'bestsellers' matter in any way other than getting them into libraries and such?

 

[Jamber]

Best Served Cold - Joe Abercrombie

Primary Character: Monzarro "Monza" Murcatto

This is a really interesting one to bring up -- I didn't really buy her 'femaleness' very well. I felt her femininity was an add-on, since it pretty much stuck to those features a heterosexual man might focus on (a vagina and breasts but no womb, no menstruation, no contraception). She was really quite androgynous, I felt.

However despite the fact that I wasn't its ideal reader, I also felt it was technically interesting -- an unlikeable protagonist, nominally female, who acquires scars at a rate of knots (albeit not lover-deterring ones) and is extremely single-minded when it comes to revenge. That certainly adds some new elements to a history of 'female characters'.

I think it's a good enough project to pluralise the depiction of female characters, and I'd always argue that there's no one way to write 'a female' (let alone 'the female'). Still, I'd prefer to read about a socially and sexually convincing female character overturning domination than a socially ambiguous (warrior but regarded as 'female') androgyne doing the same thing. It just seems there's more at stake in the former, and the fact that it's also partly about gender appeals to me (as someone who's occasionally had to fight sexism).

cheers
Jennie

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

A valid point Jamber & I agree that, in large part, she did feel androgynous. However, as I read, I noticed a multitude of occasions where it seemed as if true femininity wanted to break free of that unlikable/heartless exterior. There was an internal battle against her own womanhood that I liked as a female lead (as it relates to this story). Further, she knew how to use her gender to advantage.

Publication date 2010. For me, looking for something with a female protagonist when I was in secondary school from 1999 to 2006, that doesn't help.

Yes. I don't think anyone would disagree that the balance wasn't heavily skewed towards male MCs. I don't think that anyone would argue that it still is slanted towards the male POVs. Equally, I'm not certain one could make an argument against a steady change within the genre towards more female MCs. I'd like to think that shift is partially due to recognition of a female consumer base but mostly attributed to maturity within the genre as an art form.

 

[Steerpike]

A valid point Jamber & I agree that, in large part, she did feel androgynous. However, as I read, I noticed a multitude of occasions where it seemed as if true femininity wanted to break free of that unlikable/heartless exterior. There was an internal battle against her own womanhood that I liked as a female lead (as it relates to this story). Further, she knew how to use her gender to advantage.

Yes. And, importantly, you could understand why she was the way she was.

 

[Ophiucha]

I should say that I am currently only 21 - while I am very well-read for my age, I'm still shuffling through the 'top 100 sff novels' lists and classics and Hugo/Nebula/Locus winners for my next read. When I was 15 - which was when I really said "I love this, I want to write a novel for real~" - I was sitting down and starting up on Lord of the Rings. Considering that, here's the first list of 100 Best SFF Novels that pops up on Google. Being very generous, about 1/5 of the hundred 'best' stories of science fiction and fantasy have female protagonists with any time as the perspective character. (Game of Thrones gets to count despite still being primarily about male characters, for instance, as does The Time Traveller's Wife, as half of the novel is written from the wife's perspective and half from the husband's). And the majority of those were science fiction, at least three explicitly feminist.

Certainly there are many good fantasy novels with leading ladies, but how many of them are in the school/local library? How many of them are in the public domain? How many of them are still in print? How many of them have won awards, have featured on these lists and others? How many get the same attractive covers as Wheel of Time, with gorgeous paintings instead of bad photoshops of models who look nothing like how the characters are described in the books?

 

[glutton]

I should say that I am currently only 21 - while I am very well-read for my age, I'm still shuffling through the 'top 100 sff novels' lists and classics and Hugo/Nebula/Locus winners for my next read. When I was 15 - which was when I really said "I love this, I want to write a novel for real~" - I was sitting down and starting up on Lord of the Rings. Considering that, here's the first list of 100 Best SFF Novels that pops up on Google. Being very generous, about 1/5 of the hundred 'best' stories of science fiction and fantasy have female protagonists with any time as the perspective character. (Game of Thrones gets to count despite still being primarily about male characters, for instance, as does The Time Traveller's Wife, as half of the novel is written from the wife's perspective and half from the husband's). And the majority of those were science fiction, at least three explicitly feminist.

Certainly there are many good fantasy novels with leading ladies, but how many of them are in the school/local library? How many of them are in the public domain? How many of them are still in print? How many of them have won awards, have featured on these lists and others? How many get the same attractive covers as Wheel of Time, with gorgeous paintings instead of bad photoshops of models who look nothing like how the characters are described in the books?

Here's the thing though - why search through 'best' lists and award winners for your future reads? Why not search for books with plots/themes/characters that appeal to you, whether their lead characters are male or female (and if you want to look specifically for books with female leads, that's fine too)? All 'best' lists are subjective anyway, and I'd think the story being about things you like would be a better 'guarantee' of enjoyment than being a 'best' book according to some other people...

...yeah that all's not particularly relevant to a discussion of gender but still.

 

[Ophiucha]

Two reasons.

A) I think it is useful to read the stories that are considered the best, because there is a lot more to writing than just character choices - the writing itself, for instance. I certainly apply discretion when necessary - I hate military science fiction, and I don't care if it is considered the best damn book of the century, I probably won't read it. But I love SFF and I also want to publish in it, so I think it is worthwhile to know the market and to read as much as I can. Also, it's not like I don't actively seek out books that have female/queer/poc protagonists. I just also read what's popular, there just... isn't as much crossover between the two as I would like. And really, it'd seem strange for someone who reads as much fantasy as I do to have not read Lord of the Rings just because it's a total sausage fest.

B) I am poor. The more popular a book is, the more likely it is to be in the library.

 

[glutton]

The last one is a very valid point.

0.99 and free promo ebooks with female leads FTW?

As for the first point you may have a point also but I'm too much of a rebel to say yes or no on that one.

 

[Addison]

I thought this would be a good place to post this question:

From what I understand there are three kinds of twins.

Those who are the same gender and are identical.
Those who are the same gender but not identical.
Those who are not the same gender but have the same physical traits (blonde hair, green eyes etc)
And there's Scottish twins, brothers or sisters who are a few years apart but look so much alike they're mistaken for twins. I have this with my older brother.

But what are the other types of twins called?

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I thought this would be a good place to post this question:

From what I understand there are three kinds of twins.

Those who are the same gender and are identical.
Those who are the same gender but not identical.
Those who are not the same gender but have the same physical traits (blonde hair, green eyes etc)
And there's Scottish twins, brothers or sisters who are a few years apart but look so much alike they're mistaken for twins. I have this with my older brother.

But what are the other types of twins called?

Was this supposed to be a separate post Addison? It doesn't seem relevant to the topic.

 

[Feo Takahari]

0.99 and free promo ebooks with female leads FTW?

For me, it's webcomics, and to a lesser extent fanfiction. I find it jarring sometimes to go back to reading published fiction after a webcomic binge and realize how comparatively bland and underdeveloped the female characters are.

 

[Addison]

Yes it's a separate topic. I thought the topic of my post would be obvious that it's separate.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Yes it's a separate topic. I thought the topic of my post would be obvious that it's separate.

Understood. However, your questions have nothing to do, as far as I can tell, with "Writing from the Female POV". Topics can, at times, morph off their original track. Still, we don't want to jump completely off the rails from post to post.

Please submit your questions in a separate thread, titled as you see fit.

Thank you.

 

[Chilari]

Is an individual person's experience necessarily a symptom of a problem at large though? Nobody said anything about male led books being 'better' but could it be that readers both male and female go for them more, and if that's the case are the readers or industry being 'wrong' or maybe there is another reason? Also does whether or not the female-led books are 'bestsellers' matter in any way other than getting them into libraries and such?

The thing is, my experiences are far from unique. There was a discussion on reddit/femalewriters a few weeks ago about the same thing - many of the writers there told how they struggled to write female characters because they'd not read enough stories with female leads. I am not an anomaly here.

I think it's all a symptom of something larger. JK Rowling was told by her publisher not to use her first name; many other female writers have used male names or initials only, because apparently, boys don't read "girly" stuff or books written by women as much as the opposite: in other words, male experienece is normalised while female experience has to fit around it, disguise itself. Boys don't tend to read books ith female protagonists because it's a girly thing, and as we all know being girly is a negative trait ("he cried like a little girl", "don't be such a girl", "you run like a girl" etc - surely we've all heard that kind of thing in the playground). But girls are expected to, and do, read books with male protagonists, in part because that represents the bulk of what is available, certainly in SFF, but also because being male is normalised. Being male is how you have real adventures; stories for girls are all about the romance, stories for boys are about adventure. You can see it in films. Films aimed at women are rom coms. Films aimed at men are action films. We're told, basically, that the only adventures we're worthy of are adventures of the heart. Repeatedly.

 

[Jabrosky]

I'm a guy who's writing from female characters' PoVs right now, and so far I don't feel any particular difficulty doing so. I do not buy most of the "men and women are from different planets" crud promoted by popular culture.

 

[Ophiucha]

Yeah, and I think part of the dearth of female fantasy protagonists comes from the fact that 'fantasy' is borderline synonymous with 'action/adventure' in terms of what is published in the genre. I am not a big fan of romance novels in terms of the stories they tell, yet I've read dozens of them just because I enjoy getting the full range of female characters in the leading role. Unfortunately, it isn't always the best written genre - certainly you have the Victorian writers, but most of what's published is in the dollar bin at the grocery store checkout line. They still helped me get a better grasp on writing from the female POV, though, because there are so many different sorts of leading ladies in romance novels whereas your (non-romance) fantasy leads are usually Red Sonja 'man with curves and definitely written by a man' sorts, maybe the occasionally hooker with a heart of gold, and if you're very lucky, you might get a farm girl who is the daughter of the king and has some prophecy about them. There are a few excellent exceptions, of course, but how many of those exceptions are award winners, getting reviews in the New York Times, and have fandoms who are willing to discuss the nuances of the series and the characters? How many of them are getting big Hollywood adaptations? How many of them have only been published in the last decade, the last five years?

I mean, we've really only got The Wizard of Oz in terms of notoriety, and even that isn't being left alone. The Oz film that is in theatres right now has the male conman character in the leading role, as opposed to any of the witches or Dorothy or Princess Ozma or any of the other female characters who would have made for a more interesting film.