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GoT and ASoIaF Discussion Thread [SPOILER-FEST - READERS ONLY]

Legendary Sidekick

The HAM'ster
Moderator
This is the readers-only GoT thread. You can compare the book and the show with impunity. You can speculate on ANYTHING that's come up in the five books whether it aired on the show yet or not. You can even speculate as to whether something on the show–such os Jojen Reed's season 4 death–are likely book 6 spoilers.

You can wait for tonight's episode to air and post your reactions, or you can even speculate on what will air if you want.
 

Bluesboy

Dreamer
I think Dany will get the Iron Throne in the end, possibly marrying the fake Aegon to forever unite the legitimate and the illigetimate branches of the House Targaryen. The marriage, I admit, is just a bleak possibility, but I think we're heading to Dany conquering Westeros.

Why do I think so? Because Dany conquering the Seven Kingdoms would fit perfectly into GRRM's style. If Dany indeed gets the Iron Throne in the end, it would be like a slap in the face to all that has happened since her father's death. That all the suffering, all the wars and deaths and plots and ruthlessness was for nothing, because after an almost two-decade break from the Targaryens, the last person of that House is back on the throne.

Kind of like the French Revolution. They threw down the absolute monarchy, only to have 10 years of terror raining down upon the citizens, terror caused by their elected government, beheadings on daily agenda and all that, only to have Napoleon step in and crown himself ceasar. They basically got rid of kings, brought the country into chaos by proving they weren't mature enough to rule themselves, only to get an absolutist ceasar. And all that suffering in those 10 years was basically for nothing.

Full circle. And I think that kind of thing is GRRM's style. ASOIAF is heavily inspired by history, and this sort of thing happens in history a lot. Even English had their abolition of monarchy only to establish it once more. Rome went through a period of kings, then they had a republic for 500 years only for Augustus to take his step-father's name to create the title and office of ceasar - becoming a proper wee dictator.

But I think the fake Aegon marriage to Dany may be just a bleak possibility, because that would bring a kind of poetic symmetry that is too good to be true for the "bitter-sweet" ending GRRM promises. At the end of the 5th book Dany embraces the Targaryen words "Fire and Blood" and realises she's not a peace-maker as she tried to be in Meereen, she is a dragon, she is a conqueror who doesn't compromise. Either way, marrying or killing the fake Aegon will bring an end to the whole Blackfyre-wanting-the-ugly-chair thing.
 
Nah, Jon Snow will get the throne after killing Jaime and Aegon, although who knows how long he'll hold it. But the real battle is the one that gives the series its name: Melisandre versus the White Walkers. I think the wall will come down.
 
Fire and Ice could mean the dragons and the white walkers. They are the two 'edges' of fantasy that border the political conflict of the show. Melisandre's sect is another but I think its minor. Confession - I'm a keen watcher of the show but haven't read the books.

To me the show has focused on the instability of Westeros because no one family is strong enough to hold the power - the disunity is causing all sorts of trouble and I was envisaging that in the end there would be unity, though not through peaceful means. In the past the Targaryens could hold Westeros because their dragons gave them military supremacy - once the dragons died out it was a matter of time before the squabbling broke out. The inbreeding/mad Aerys just sped events up.

Now that Dany has her dragons its all changed - she stands a chance of uniting Westeros and it helps that she has her head on her shoulders and critically has some decent advisors (fist pump Tyrion). I suspect her path to unifying Westeros may well be full of twists and turns and blood and gore but it would be a 'clean' ending. Then again if GRRM is pursuing a statement on European history then perhaps Dany falls flat on her face and the instability goes on and on - but GRRM has introduced the fantasy elements which to me suggest that the ending will go beyond a historical allegory.

What do you think: is Jon Snow really a Targaryen (no white hair but white dire wolf??) and could he end up marrying Dany? More inbreeding but they are the protagonists at the fantasy edges of the story.
 

X Equestris

Maester
I've heard the rumors of Jon Snow's parentage, but your bring up a good point re his hair. I wonder if he's Robert's bastard.

My bet is that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyana Stark. A lot of the little hints seem to point towards that being the case. Also, some possible subtext from that lore book that got released recently mentions a marriage alliance between the Starks and the Targaryens in the distant past. And that pact was known as the Pact of Ice and Fire.
 
Yes, that's probably right, and I didn't remember that about the pact. Nonetheless, that's gotten so much currency, now I'm hoping it's something different. It would make the slaughter of all Robert's other bastards important because no one but Jon Snow, if he's still alive, would be left to contest his claim.
 
Well...this is supposed to be a zone that's OK for spoilers...am I right???

It's just...seems many of you have not read to the end of Book Five yet...that's all I'll say, for now anyway. =}

Max
 

Legendary Sidekick

The HAM'ster
Moderator
Well...this is supposed to be a zone that's OK for spoilers...am I right???

It's just...seems many of you have not read to the end of Book Five yet...that's all I'll say, for now anyway. =}

Max
Yeah, I have the concern not everyone here read book five, but I did open the thread with a warning which includes these words:
You can speculate on ANYTHING that's come up in the five books whether it aired on the show yet or not.
So, have at it, Max. Everyone's been warned.

If you're really worried, you can use a spoiler tag, but I call it SPOILER-FEST as if to imply clicking on this thread is like opening a giant spoiler tag. With sharp, spoily teeth and a spoily, green wart on its nose.



Having said that, I'm gonna be the jerk to spoil stuff. With no tags!

(That's your cue to run screaming if you didn't read book 5.)

So, my wife didn't read the books. She didn't notice Tormund's face as Mance was burning. I thought the actor did a good job showing an expression of guilt over the burning. I told my wife about the skin-changing magic, and now I'm wondering if Arya's training at the House of Black and White will tie in with Jon meeting Mance later on.
 

Bluesboy

Dreamer
It's just...seems many of you have not read to the end of Book Five yet...that's all I'll say, for now anyway. =}

Please, those of you who watch the show, know that this storyline is completly cut out of the TV version and thus you have nothing of value to say. This thread is for the book wankers.

The Varys' monologue you're speaking of is a very well crafted one. He doesn't say that Aegon is the real deal, he just says he is more worthy of the throne, because he was educated on how to rule and that he doesn't consider the Iron Throne his birthright, but a duty towards his people. While there is only a limited number of people who can consider the Iron Throne their birthright, there is a lot of people who are more worthy of it in terms of their intellect and ability to rule.

Throughout the fifth book, there are numerous hints that strongly suggest that Aegon is not the real Targaryen, but rather, a Blackfyre pretender. In this fan theory, Varys is the last male of the Blackfyre line, but cannot claim the Iron Throne for himself because of the eunuch thingy. His eye colour is never described in the books, so we don't know whether he's got the typical purple eyes of the Targaryens. The fact that GRRM mentions eye colours for almost all the characters, this omition is a rather telling one. Since he shaves his head, no one knows whether he's got the silvery-golden hair of Targaryens either.

Illyrio is supposedly his brother-in-law, once being married to Varys' sister, having a boy who was named Aegon. Illyrio tells Tyrion that the Golden Company is going to help the boy, yet the Golden Company has no interest in helping the real Targaryens. It was founded by a Blackfyre pretender to put a Blackfyre male on the Iron Throne. They turned down young Viserys when he travelled around the Free Cities, yet now would support Viserys' nephew (Aegon)? Unlikely. Tyrion himself is skeptical throughout the fifth book about the boy's identity.

Tyrion is puzzled by why the Golden Company would support a boy who has insufficient gold to pay them, to which Illyrio only says that "Some contracts are writ in ink, and some in blood. I say no more." The Golden Company has a history of never breaking a contract and they will never do so until they find a Blackfyre male to put on the Iron Throne and despite having a contract in Essos in the fifth book, they break it to sail to Westeros with the boy.

Illyrio and Varys hoped the boy would marry Daenerys, which would give them dragons and Aegon would gain legitimacy in the eyes of people of Westeros, because everyone thinks the boy is dead and if Daenerys, about whom everyone knows is the real deal, her approval of the boy would give him that legitimacy.

Personally, I believe this theory. I think it's a strong one. It follows that pattern GRRM has about three steps revelation of certain things. The first step was in the fourth book where you have that Septon in the Trident area telling Brienne and Pod about a tavern the owner of which had a large black metal dragon hung outside the inn. During some Blackfyre rebellion, the black metal dragon offended the ruling Targaryen king, because black dragon on a field of red is the sigil of House Blackfyre. The owner of the inn threw the metal dragon into the nearby river and years later, the dragon was washed up on the shore of the Quiet Isle, red with rust. If Aegon indeed turns out to be a Blackfyre (black dragon), years later he is presented as a Targaryen (red dragon). The first step in GRRM's revelation habit is always the hardest to spot and usually comes to slap you in the face during a reread.

The second step is usually more obvious, but still subtle. The Golden Company sailing off with the boy is, I think, a pretty strong indication that the boy is not a real Targaryen. The third step will be spelling it out to everyone in a broad day light. The Winds of Winter can't come soon enough :D
 

Legendary Sidekick

The HAM'ster
Moderator
Brienne and Pod are taking a very different route in the show than they did in the book.

Normally, I'm the guy who says WTF that's not how the story goes, but for some reason—either because I'm a Brienne fan or because I've accepted that the show is different—I'm just enjoying Brienne's sword slashing bellies and piercing throats. In the book, I liked how she cried after her first time killing men, but that scene already happened in season 2 of the show. (The tears were more for Renly than having killed.)

The only deviations I still don't like are character combos that redefine existing characters. Mrs. Viper was against revenge, and now she's for killing a kid. So I guess she's all of the sand snakes at once. A minor character, but it does save the trouble of introducing a bunch of characters, so the deviation makes sense. It was just a WTF moment for me (followed by near-immediate acceptance). It didn't piss me off as much as Dario absorbing Strong Balwas. But then, I hate Dario, so maybe if he's puking on poison at the pit fights I'll feel a little satisfaction.
 
I'm kind of hoping that the Jon Snow incident in book five isn't the end of him. If it is, I'd feel like his story line didn't amount to much and would likely be the weakest POV in the series.
 

Bluesboy

Dreamer
Arya, Tyrion, Jon Snow, Daenerys, and Bran, I think, the only main characters who should survive through it all to the very end, though I don't know whether some of them will die in the end. At least that much was in GRRM's leaked pitch letter he gave to his agent to offer the series to publishers. Many things have changed, but many have stayed and so it's possible those 5 will indeed survive to the end, but may die at the end.
 

Legendary Sidekick

The HAM'ster
Moderator
I consider them "safe" in a series in which no one is safe. (Well, someone is safe, of course. But only GRRM really knows who. And maybe Mrs. M and a select few others.)

Brienne's the one I enjoy rooting for because she's not "safe." I'd like to think of her as potential Queensguard if she makes it to the end. I'd also like to think she didn't betray Jaime, but… book 6 or season 6 might answer that.
 

Legendary Sidekick

The HAM'ster
Moderator
I understand the reason was to shorten the scene, but I was disappointed with the Slynt beheading. It was one of the more memorable moments from Book 5 when Snow changed his mind about having Slynt executed. I loved the moment--"This is a mistake," Janos' smirk, the men questioning Jon's leadership--then Jon takes the sword out, following his late father's example by carrying out the execution himself. The chapter ending with a man saying "I want his boots" cracked me up.

I know--changes for the screen, can't get every book moment in the show--but this was one of the scenes I was looking forward to, and it kind of fell flat with me. The price of being a book wanker, I guess.



But what about Sansa marrying the Bolton Bastard? Anyone find that to be an odd deviation? Ramsey has his way with the poor girl he married in the book, and he hurt her. I'd like to think Sansa won't lose her virginity to him of all people.

Speaking of which... Tommen consummating his wedding was a change that totally made sense since the actor is much older than 8. I guess Cersei would simply convince the High Sparrow to question Margerie's fidelity rather than her virginity.
 

ThinkerX

Myth Weaver
Going from a few You-Tube snippets, it seems to me like the current season is blasting through books four and five at top speed. I mean...Tyrion kidnapped already? At this rate he'll be in Merleen within another couple of episodes.

And the bit with Sansa getting married to Bolton's Bastard really deviates from the books. More dramatic as well, and in my view, more in keeping with Littlefinger's nature. There is the small problem of Sansa still being technically married to Tyrion, though.

Brienne and Pod also seem to be taking a different trajectory.

To me, it looks like Volantis got short shrift on the screen. More's the pity. Also, 'fake' Aegon hasn't made an appearance. Same with 'Griff'. Are they even going to be in the television series?

Nothing yet on a Dornish prince heading off to Merleen and getting himself killed. Wonder if that got nixed.

Hopefully, we still get a giant fleet of Ironborn dropping anchor off Merleen by seasons end.

Yeah, I know, cast of hundreds, can't include them all, but still...
 

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
I'm kind of hoping that the Jon Snow incident in book five isn't the end of him. If it is, I'd feel like his story line didn't amount to much and would likely be the weakest POV in the series.

Thoros of Myr resurrects Beric DonDarrion early on in the series for a reason, and it's not just to set up Cat's rebirth as Lady Stoneheart.

Thoros is a priest of R'hllor, same Melisandre, the Red Woman. I'll be shocked if Jon isn't resurrected, and in doing so, released from his vow to the Night's Watch... they serve until death. Jon's death was likely orchestrated by Stannis to get what he wants, the North.
 
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