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Spoiler-Fest: Star Wars VII

Discussion in 'Film & Television' started by Legendary Sidekick, Dec 22, 2015.

  1. Legendary Sidekick

    Legendary Sidekick The HAM'ster Moderator

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    The Force Awakens thread is awakening borderline spoilers. Let those of us who saw the movie discuss freely here.

    For those of you who did not see the movie, I'm gonna post a really tall image. And you will not scroll down past the image because that's where spoilers happen!

    [​IMG]

    Beyond here, there be monsters. Spoiler Monsters.
     
  2. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Moderator

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    Rey is awesome.
     
  3. T.Allen.Smith

    T.Allen.Smith Staff Moderator

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    Agreed. Like the Rey character a lot.

    That metal staff she's carrying. My guess is it's a saber staff, which is a light saber blade on the end of a long pole (made of saber resistant metal).

    There must be a reason for someone in an age of starships and blaster to carry around a metal staff. My guess is sentimental value. It has some connection to her parents (likely Jedi hunted down and killed) who may be related to the Skywalker line. She may even be Luke's daughter.

    Anyway, we'll see if Luke can fix the staff, supposing I'm right, of course.

    As an adult, I saw Han's death coming, but my 6 year old's face was a picture of shock and disbelief. He was floored. Gutted. He loved Han Solo.

    Although the Kylo Ren character left a bit to be desired, I liked how he feels the pull to the light. We always hear about the seduction of the dark side, but never the other way around. I think I'll enjoy his character more as the struggle for his soul continues and Ren's relationship to Snoke becomes clear.

    Lastly, on Supreme Leader Snoke.... Darth Plagueis the Wise?
     
  4. Gryphos

    Gryphos Auror

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    Codey Amprim and T.Allen.Smith like this.
  5. Legendary Sidekick

    Legendary Sidekick The HAM'ster Moderator

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    Han's death was easily predictable (including that it would be through the torso protruding out Han's back), but not in a bad way. I loved the lighting in that scene when Rey and Finn stood and watched the inevitable. It was a Ben meets Darth moment.

    Rey as the hero—I like it. She was no damsel in distress. I was expecting Han's and Leia's daughter, but Luke seems more likely. I won't be up at night concocting theories.

    What really impressed me was the humor. It was subtle, like the two stormtroopers reversing their patrol when Kylo threw one of his shit fits. It was never used to throw the audience from depressive to manic—I mean when five heavily-populated moons were blown to bits, we didn't have Jar Jar Binks slip on a banana peel and cause a squadron of tie fighters to crash. Just subtle humor with appropriate timing.

    I like Kylo Ren as a fledgeling villain—a Darth Vader wannabe—an ill-tempered tweener who has yet to master the force. His wound from Chewy's shot renders him almost an even match against Finn, and the force is strong with Rey. And yeah, the light is calling to him and he hates that.

    Looking forward to the next. I hope to see it in the same theater, too. The seats were comfy and reclinable. Plus, they'll have a bar there by the time VIII comes out.
     
  6. MineOwnKing

    MineOwnKing Maester

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    Okay,

    My first impression was that the beginning was really slow. Then I realized that I've been desensitized by the modern craze for nonstop action movies.

    With a young son under my wing, I get exposed to movies like Transformers, etc. Yet even adult films have become this way. The new Mad Max is pretty much non stop action.

    So in comparison, this movie was different and felt slow.

    But in fact, there was a lot of action, and I liked it, it was just different.

    Star Wars films have a history of choosing a cast of forgettable faces and this movie is no different. I think it works well with the Star Wars movies and is completely opposite of Star Trek movies, which are full of memorable faces.

    I would have a hard time picking any of them out of a line up. Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher had nondescript faces when they were younger and I see the same in Rey and Finn. I don't think it's a bad thing, in fact it adds to the appeal. Joe the plumber can watch the movie and say, "Hey, I could be that guy." Versus a movie with a larger than life actor like Brad Pitt.

    I think they jumped the gun on Rey's abilities.

    Hopping into the Millennium Falcon and mastering flying maneuvers on a first time run doesn't seem believable, even for a Jedi.

    Elite Storm Troopers are too easily killed in my opinion. There was a new image cast on the troopers that more closely resembled WWII Germany rather than just hinting at it. Instead of just following orders, now they seem to enjoy their work and have the shadow of evil on them. I think they should be harder to kill.

    Almost every scene seemed to have an homage to the earlier movies. Adults will no doubt pick up on this right away. The homages took over the movie in my opinion and stifled originality. It almost felt like a remake, complete with destruction of yet another death star.

    I found Ben Solo's character contrived. What is the mask even for? Is it air conditioned? It was hard to hear him in the mask and wasn't very scary looking. I'm sure there will be volumes written about his light saber. I think it was a creative idea that should have been scrapped. Looks too dangerous to use, poor design, bad idea.

    Taking off the helmet was anticlimactic at best. He looks like a Harry Potter character and I was disappointed that Rey didn't finish him off.

    I will say that when Rey grabbed the light saber and turned it on, I felt like I was witness to the most memorable moment in all of film history. It felt real and really moved me.

    Yet, again, with no training she gets the best of a semi-trained sith. Really cool light saber battle, just not very believable given the circumstances.

    I'm sure Yoda would have had something to say about all these abilities and no training. Something like "Hmmph!"

    There was a big goof up when Rey found the light saber. When did Anakin tell Obi Wan " Make sure Luke get's my lightsaber!"
    WTF?

    Despite my disappointments, I genuinely enjoyed the film. Once again they produced a film for the ages.

    My son is 8 and he liked it, but he has been pretty quiet about it.

    I saw Star Wars when I was 5. It shaped my imagination.

    I don't see that happening to my son with this film.
     
  7. Gryphos

    Gryphos Auror

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    On the subject of Rey (and to a lesser extent Finn) being able to take on Kylo Ren, I think you need to consider several factors. First off, Kylo was wounded, at full strength I reckon he would have beat Rey. Also, Finn and Rey both have combat experience. Finn was a stormtrooper, and Rey clearly learned how to handle herself on Jakku, as earlier in the film she's shown holding her own against the thugs that try to steal BB8. Of course, this wasn't enough for Finn, who, lacking in Force-enhanced instincts, got his arse handed to him and was almost killed by Kylo. But Rey had the bonus of the Force, and it was through tapping into the Force that she was able to beat him. And finally, Kylo Ren probably isn't that powerful anyway. He's still just an apprentice, shown when Snoke says how 'he needs to complete his training'. When you think about his character, he's literally just a wannabe Darth Vader, but isn't anywhere near as powerful as him.
     
  8. I thoroughly enjoyed this movie. It was wonderful. I love the new lightsaber design. Not because I think it is functional but it reflects Ren's character so well. Just looking at the blade it is...unstable. The cross-guard is clearly ventilation so that the whole thing doesn't blow up. That refelcts Ren so well who is himself unstable and untrained, he is incomplete. His lightsaber indicates that it is unstable and poorly made, it is incomplete. Also there are two metal bits that protect the hand from sliding up and getting sliced off. I did roll my eyes at the new Death Star. (Oh just rebuild it and who's going to give a loan jack-hole, you? What you got an ATM on that torso light-brite of yours?). And while I do think that the death of Han was telegraphed, that face touching scene got me in the feels on the second viewing. The first viewing was me doing this:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2017
  9. Codey Amprim

    Codey Amprim Staff Article Team

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    I'm only going to touch on the characters on this one. As a whole though, this movie put such a grin on my face scene after scene, and for that I love this movie.
    But the writer part of me is always allowed to pick things apart. ;)
    Snoke:
    My thoughts exactly. There is no other that fits the bill for me, nor could I see them introducing yet another dark lord at this point. I'm really hoping that he can bring out some new dark side tricks, as Kylo already seems to have the ability to put someone in stasis, albeit temporarily, which I don't believe has been shown yet in the films.
    My guess is that he will use Kylo's blind rage and inherited power to turn him into some sort of abomination of the force. It may be a stretch, but it's possible.
    I'm hoping that Snoke has something other than rebuilding the Death Star for the millionth time up his sleeve. The planet-sized, star-devouring machine was awe-inspiring to say the least, but all it really came to be was a Death Star on steroids. Maybe his plans will be just to eliminate Luke and Rey for vengeance's sake.

    Who knows.

    Thank you for this post.

    Rey:
    Rey, although her skills and character arc seemed to soar out of proportion, is still a great character for the Star Wars universe. I am quite content with her, and I honestly had to idea what to expect from just the sneak peeks we had going into this movie.
    I will say this: When Rey ignited the lightsaber I had not had such chills from a woman character since Éowyn rammed her sword into the face of the Witch King in Return of the King. Freakin' epic.

    The only explanation I have to her growing into her force powers is in the title of the movie. Did the force awaken within her? Is the force that much of a morning person?

    Without this explanation I will continue to have issues with her power spike, and how she practically defeated Kylo. The piloting of the Millenium Falcon is also wonky, but every Jedi great thus far has had incredible piloting skills. Still, I am very eager to see her progression of a character. My guess: she becomes a sort of Jedi Sentinel or Consular.

    Most likely she is the daughter of Luke, although why he sold her off as a child wouldn't make sense, even if to hide her from Kylo and the "Knights of Ren" that we never get to see, Kylo would have to be much older by the time he went crazy and started slaughtering Jedi.

    Also, I would love to see some sort of saber-lance or staff.

    Kylo Ren:

    It's hard being a villain in the Star Wars universe. Having to live in the shadow of Vader, which this character takes quite literally, is really hard considering the fan base's loyalty and reverence of the original Dark Lord.

    I wish they would've developed his inner struggle of light and darkness, but keeping his story a mystery makes us crave how he came to this point. His character progression is awkward. At first he's the definite villain, and as the story progresses, I lost the reasoning to dislike him and grew curious as to who he is. But the moment Han stepped towards the bridge, I knew what was going to make me and audiences everywhere hate him. I see what the episode served for him, though. Not only was it his introduction into the story, but it was his final moments before descending into Sith-hood, where the light is finally overcome by the dark.

    There has been much nerd rage spent about this very thing on the Internet, even Stephen Colbert had a piece on it. In my opinion, I think it's badass. The whole sword rather than saber feel about it has me giving two thumbs up... Even if it looks like I'd burn them both off misusing it.

    You put this into such a great perspective. :)

    Think back to Darth Maul. The double saber. Lots of people loved it, lots of people didn't. I think with each new iteration of the Star Wars saga they try to add a little more badassery to the sabers. If they all were the same, it would be a little boring - differing colors can only captivate interest for so long until you start losing the wow factor, though I guess the same could be said for the weapon itself. They try to keep the idea of the lightsaber fresh, and I love it. And like with Rey, I see them trying to create a new weapon with her staff.

    Finn: At first I didn't like how his defection was expedited, but the character grew on me as another luck-struck scoundrel. I don't think he'll become a Jedi.

    My prediction: he and Phasma have an epic shootout.

    Speaking of her...

    Captain Phasma: Why, oh why, would you make such a badass storm trooper (HER ARMOR IS FREAKING CHROME) AND NOT GIVE HER MORE THAN 5 MINUTES OF SCREEN TIME?! WHAT.
    I hope she, too, escaped the clutches of the trash compactor. She had to.
    I would've like to have seen more from the character in general, but I have a hunch she'll return. I fear I am running short on words, so I'll leave off there.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2015
  10. Gryphos

    Gryphos Auror

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    Captain Phasma better do some badass shit in the next film or I'm going to be so mad.

    As for Kylo's lightsaber, I think it's awesome. I actually think that it's a lot less dangerous to the user than you might think at first glance. There have been numerous videos on youtube from sword enthusiasts explaining that any competent sword user would easily be able to avoid hurting themselves. And when you consider the fact that Kylo Ren has likely trained specifically to use that lightsaber, and so would be even less likely to hurt himself, and there's no issue. Plus, as shown by his fight with Finn, those side-blades can be useful.
     
  11. Agreed. What a waste of a BAMF. I hope for a huge shootout between Finn and Phasma. I'm talking blaster bolts flying everywhichway and then ending with a western style quick draw.
     
  12. Legendary Sidekick

    Legendary Sidekick The HAM'ster Moderator

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    I expect we'll see a lot more of Evil Brienne the Beast.

    It's more than a feeling. (Link goes to an article, not a Foreigner song.)
     
  13. T.Allen.Smith

    T.Allen.Smith Staff Moderator

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    Good points on Phasma. I expected a lot more from that character.
     
  14. Penpilot

    Penpilot Staff Article Team

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    Ok where to start. Sorry but this is going to be long. There's just so much to talk about... or rather blabber on about.

    The Niggling.


    There are a lot of little things that feel a little rushed, where you can feel the need of plot moving forward overpowering the need for everything to happen naturally. It isn't awkward to the point of cringe worthy, but there were points where I pursed my lips.

    I wonder how much of this was left on the cutting room floor. Hopefully, we'll get some of it in an extended edition.

    1 )For example, there's point in the movie where Fin and Poe hug after the battle where we find out Poe isn't dead. Did their relationship really warrant a hug? They barely knew each other. I'd say it deserved more of a handshake or a forearm clasp. At best it was a bro-hug with the handshake pulling in for a quick half-hug.

    But for me, that could have been addressed with a quick character moment between the two slipped in between the escape and them stealing the TIE fighter. They tried to address this inside the cockpit of the TIE fighter, but their personal exchange in there felt a little awkward. Like I said, the demands of plot intruding.

    They could have just moved all that into a quick breather scene, and I think it might have worked better. The character moment would have been more focused.

    2) Han and Leia's dialogue discussing their backstory felt info dumpy, and IMHO could have been smoothed over. This is a bit surprising considering Carrie Fisher is a script doctor.

    3)Kylo Ren struggle with the light. It was talked about but not really shown. I don’t recall a moment where the light actually made him do something he shouldn't have or even temped him to do good. Which took away from Han's death. There was never any doubt about what was going to happen.

    4)Which brings me to Han and Kylo, on the bridge. I heard this point on a review, and I agree with it. Han was trying to reason with Kylo on an intellectual level instead of an emotional level. He talked about how Snoke was going to use and betray him, but that just felt like plot moving forward. IMHO he should have appealed to him as a father.

    To be presumptuous, I think the conversation should have been more like this.

    Kylo could have said something like he’d done many dark things, and he feels like he can't go back even though the light calls to him.
    Han response that didn’t matter. None of it matters. He can always come home. His mother misses him. He misses him.
    Kylo answers he feels the pull of the light and the dark. It pains him. And then he ask Han for help.
    They embrace and Kylo can say he loves him.
    Han could say he knows. - a small call back to Empire.
    And them Kylo gives into the darkside.

    To me that would have been more fitting, at least in my eyes, but I'm just fanboying here.

    5) Rey’s discovery of her powers, felt like it needed another moment to bring it home. She jumps from no force powers to fighting Kylo’s mind reading to her Jedi mind tricking a Stormtrooper. I think there needed to be a moment of self realization between the last two, at least more of a set up for the mind trick.

    To me it's implied that she's being guided by the Force in all her actions, whether it's flying the Falcon or fighting, but there needs to be tiniest moment of self discovery, and I think this niggling bit would have gone away. And it would have made her summoning of the Force in her fight with Kylo that much more epic.


    With my niggling complaints out of the way.

    The Great Stuff



    Kylo having his temper tantrums. I so felt for that poor, sweating schmuck who had to deliver the the bad news about not capturing BB8. And as mentioned, after Rey escaped the two stormtroopers come around the corner doing an about face when they heard Kylo freaking out. They didn't want none of that.

    NO Darth X. I hope they deal away with the whole Darth naming system. To me it always felt silly for Darth to be a kind of title, especially when Ben Kenobi used it like a first name in a new hope. I think it takes away from the uniqueness of a character. Kylo Ren is a character's name. Darth Kylo is a venereal disease. Got a major case of Darth Kylo, and it itches like a jar-jar in the face.

    Likeable characters right from the start. They doubled up on Rey by kicking and saving the cat, or rather droid on the latter, moments to show us her character. And with Fin, his refusal to execute helpless people. Great genuine character moments efficiently delivered.

    Great visual story telling with Rey driving across the desert with crashed Star Destroyer and X-wing in the back and foreground. Rey eating while sitting next to the foot of an AT-AT. Those two things add to the feeling of her being one insignificant spec amongst giants of the universe.

    Fin being recognized by a fellow Stormtrooper and their fight, as well as making the Stormtroopers competent in aim and fighting skills. Also, making them actual people not disposable clones or droids, added some much needed weight to their deaths even though they’re the bad guys.

    The Speculation

    I know some don't like this echoing ANH, but for me, I don't mind. I'd rather have a soft reboot like this than a hard one.

    It's also in a way is like an unintentional jab at George Lucas. Lucas said of the prequels that they're supposed to be like poetry where the prequels rhyme with the originals. I guess he thought of it as art. But there are two words that rhyme with Art, Fart and Heart.

    And of those two things, there's only one in which you want to get your face close to in order to hear the beats that come out. Guess which one George produced--a big wet one.

    See George, this is how you rhyme.

    As for Rey, I'm fairly certain that she's Luke's daughter. It kind of goes with Luke's voice overs in the trailer about the Force being strong with him, his father, his sister, ANNNNNDDD his daughter. It also makes the conflict a family matter like in the original trilogy. Maybe her mother is the one who took and left her on Jakku, which is kind of like what happened to Luke.

    Maybe Luke thinks he lost his daughter when Kylo betrayed the Jedi order and doesn't realize she's alive until Rey shows up on his doorstep.

    Of note, I heard someone say that in the EU, Han and Leia have a son that turns to the darkside. So I wonder how much they're going to draw on that?

    I think in regards to Phasma and Poe, not having huge parts in the movie, I think it might have been a good thing. Too many directions makes for a lack of focus. Better to have people wanting more than to have too much.

    Boba Fett was barely in the original but was very memorable. Someone tweeted that all of Boba Fetts dialogue in all the movies fits into a single tweet.

    Any way that's my LOOOOOOOOOOOONG rant.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2015
  15. Ryan_Crown

    Ryan_Crown Troubadour

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    So many criticisms, so little time (so be prepared for a long post)! First let me just say that I did enjoy the movie, for what it was. But mostly that's because I ignored what little story there was (and tried my best to ignore how blatantly that story just ripped off the original trilogy) and focused on the visuals and the fight scenes/battles. And on that score I will say the movie was a complete success. Unlike the prequels this really looked and felt like a Star Wars movie. The crashed Star Destroyers, the bad ass new Tie Fighters, even the stormtrooper armor got a nice upgrade while still looking like stormtrooper armor. And the battles were everything you'd hope for from a Star Wars film.

    I liked both the new heroes, even with the many issues that both of them had. Luckily the one big advantage they had was they got great actors to portray them, and I think both did a superb job. My absolute favorite character, though, has to be one that no one's mentioned yet -- Maz Kanata. As the pseudo-Yoda, wise, ancient character, I thought she fantastic, and I hope they bring her back for future movies.

    I liked Rey a lot, even if she was a bit overly powerful (but I'm hoping that's addressed in future movies). And I'm really hoping she's NOT Luke's daughter, because that just feels too obvious. One idea that I saw posted elsewhere that I would love, is that she could be Obi-Wan's granddaughter. Now that I think would be an interesting twist.

    Completely random observation - when Rey orders the storm trooper to free her, am I the only one that kept hearing Lady Jessica from Dune using "The Voice"? For some reason that scene reminded me way more of Dune than it did the original Star Wars (not that I had a problem with that, just found it amusing).

    I liked Finn's character, and I think John Boyega did a good job with the character. My problem, though, was he never for one minute came across as a former stormtrooper -- well, except in the fight scenes, that's pretty much a given. I'm talking about any dialogue or scene that showcases his personality. This guy was trained/brainwashed from childhood to be an elite soldier? Well, no, actually he was trained from childhood to work in sanitation! Because clearly there's a job that requires a lifetime of training. Maybe that's why the stormtroopers were so easily beaten -- they weren't really elite soldiers, just maintenance men with laser rifles that the First Order used when they needed a bunch of unarmed civilians dispatched.

    Which brings me to Captain Phasma -- a character I really liked right up to the moment when Finn orders her to lower the shields, and she just does it! No wonder the First Order gets their asses kicked despite their massive firepower if this is the quality of soldiers they have. No defiance, no "You'll have to kill me before I'll aid you!". Nope, they threaten her life and she immediately caves, despite the fact that she's just committed an act of treason that is likely to get her and all of her compatriots killed. But I guess the movie was running long at that point and they just didn't have time to make lowering the shield an actual challenge or anything.

    I'm going to skip discussing Kylo Ren, because I feel I could write an entire post just about the things I didn't like about him (Darth Maul only gets one movie, and this whiner gets to be in probably an entire trilogy? Where's the justice in that?!)

    As far as the story goes, it didn't take me long to just ignore it since it made little sense and had really nothing original to it. Force-sensitive orphan on a desert planet meets droid with obvious Mcguffin that needs to be delivered to the forces of good? Check. Mentor/father figure tragically killed by the villain while the hero watches helplessly? Check. Reveal that the villain is related to the heroes? Check. Fatal flaw in the design of our massive planet killer? Check. Sending in a small group of heroes to disable the shield so that the fighters can blow up said planet killer? Check.

    And let's talk about Starkiller Base for a moment. Okay, I do appreciate the use of the name, but what idiot decides, "Hey, the last two attempts at a Death Star were abject failures, but if we make it really, really big this time, it's sure to be a success!!" And if this is the remnants of the Empire trying to reestablish themselves, where exactly did they come up with the resources to build something that much larger and more powerful than the Empire's crowning achievement? It doesn't take an economist to realize the absolute impossibility of that entire scenario.

    My last comment/criticism is a minor thing, but it was something that really bothered as I was watching the movie (whereas most of the rest of my criticisms were formed after the movie was over and I had time to discuss/analyze it). "Luke, we're gonna have company!" was my absolute favorite line from the original Star Wars. And Abrams not only stole it, he turned it into a poorly delivered throwaway line. But that's what JJ Abrams does. Just like Super 8 was beginning to end Abrams gushing over how much he loved Spielberg movies, The Force Awakens was him beginning to end gushing over how much he really, really loved the original Star Wars movies.

    So at the end of the day I had enough fun watching the movie to feel that it was worth my time and money, but I can't imagine I'll go see it again. And yes, I'll go see the sequels, both out of morbid curiosity and because they will also be fun, mindless popcorn movies. But as a writer, I look at The Force Awakens as a solid example of what NOT to do when writing a story.
     
  16. One other thing I noticed is that Rei seemed to have touched on the Dark Side in her fight with Ren. I wonder if that will continue as the series progresses.
     
  17. T.Allen.Smith

    T.Allen.Smith Staff Moderator

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    Yes. Jacen Solo, a.k.a. Darth Caedus
     
  18. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Moderator

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    Don't they have twins, a son who goes to the dark side and a daughter to the light?
     
  19. X Equestris

    X Equestris Maester

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    Yeah, Jaina. And a son who died, Anakin.
     
  20. T.Allen.Smith

    T.Allen.Smith Staff Moderator

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    Yes. Jaina is the sister.

    She eventually kills her brother.

    EDIT: NINJA'd
     
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